What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?

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digwriter Posts : 25 Registered: 12/19/08
What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 6:55 PM

So I'm newly engaged (as of last Saturday) but well prepared and well aware that weddings are pretty expensive. Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm more excited about planning my dream wedding or planning a wedding that didn't cost me a whole lot. Some might call that cheap, but I say it's practical.

While we keeping hearing that the cost of the average North American wedding is going up and up, in these tight economic times I'm pretty sure there are a lot of us out there trying to save as much money as we possibly can. So I thought it might be fun and certainly informative to find out what everyone's top tips are or what your fabulous finds have been in the quest to save some cash on the big day.

I for sure need help. My budget is teeny tiny.


auntofthebride Posts : 9,354 Registered: 4/2/06
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 7:15 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

Dear Betty,

Here is my suggestion.

Look at EACH AND EVERY ITEM associated with a wedding and ask yourself "Is this something I really need?".

Take a ground-zero approach, in other words.

There are plenty of things that the Wedding Industrial Complex will try to convince you that you MUST HAVE for the perfect wedding. Anything beyond a willing bride*, a willing groom*, license and officiant are not MUST HAVES.

Do you need a limo?

Do you need a professional hair stylist?

Do you need save-the-date cards?

There's nothing wrong with getting a limo, a hair stylist or save-the-date cards, not at all. If you can afford them, and if you like the idea of a limo, a hair stylist or save-the-date cards, then great. Get them.

But, if not, don't let people talk you into it. You are just as happily married if you arrive in your 1996 Ford Taurus, do your own hair or just spread the news through The Grapevine.

I didn't need no steekin' save-the-date cards. My mom was on the phone with the relatives within nanoseconds of my telling her of our date. The word was spread to everyone who needed to know within minutes.

*In Canada, you can have two willing brides or two willing grooms.


Miyuhime Posts : 40 Registered: 10/12/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 8:54 PM Go to message in response to: auntofthebride

I agree with AOTB - cut the fat!

I am always shocked to see the 10 K plus budgets! Maybe its because I don't need/can't afford the excessive things LOL

We should be in at around 3K. All frills are cut. Our venue includes a ton of stuff and we can have the ceremony there.

Look around for deals. I found a lot of things at walmart, hobby lobby, etc. I also hit ebay for a number of things, including my flowers.

My dress I lucked out and found it brand new at a thrift store for 40$

Im not obsessing over favours. We're going to take plastic champagne glasses and fill them with assorted candy.

My DJ is a old coworker so he gave me a huge discount.

With the photography, we are cheating. We have professional gear, so we are going to have a remote with us. My mum's fiancee will handle up close ceremony shots.

Just gotta be creative :D


PharmToxGirl Posts : 5,446 Registered: 8/30/07
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 9:35 PM Go to message in response to: Miyuhime

I am always shocked to see the 10 K plus budgets! Maybe its because I don't need/can't afford the excessive things LOL

I'm all for keeping your wedding within your budget and keeping costs down - but I found this statement offensive.

Just because some brides have budgets over 10K doesn't mean they haven't cut corners.


MagicalMomentsP... Posts : 742 Registered: 3/6/06
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:07 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

There are many ways to cut back. Some of them are smart and then there are ways that are not so smart. For instance, cut back the amount of time you'll need your photographer or the size of your album. But don't jump for the first photographer who offers you a low price. They may not be providing you with quality products or services. So perhaps you'll discover that is not a place to skimp on quality.

Another obvious place to cut back is the number of guests. Fewer guests translates into less people to feed. But more importantly, it means you can use a smaller banquet room and have fewer tables. Fewer table means you will not need as many center pieces.

I've noticed a new trend to have an early afternoon wedding with a cocktail reception to follow. Rather than utilize a hotel or other banquet facility, the bride has chosen to use an upscale nightclub which opens later in the evening. The club is able to obtain income at a time the club would normally be closed, has a DJ and bar available. In return, you can host your reception for a lot less than you would at a traditional wedding venue. These types of weddings work really well on a Sunday afternoon. But you may not be able to have a church ceremony.

Howard Kier, Certified Professional Wedding Photographer

Magical Moments Photography


CountryPrincess Posts : 673 Registered: 9/25/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:09 PM Go to message in response to: PharmToxGirl

I agree with Pharm. My wedding budget is exactly 10k and we are cutting back A LOT.

Anyway..to the OP. Here are some things we're doing.
-find a reception site that will let you bring in your own food and/or drink. Our reception site lets us bring on our own drinks (including alcohol) and our own food as long as it is through a catering company...something about insurance. But there isn't a certain catering company we have to use and there's no surcharge for brining somone else in thats not on their list (which are both quite frequent things).
-don't do a seating card for each guest at the reception. Do a chart by the front and have people listed by tables. We are getting an easel (which we have), thick colored craft board and paper. Type out the table number and guest names on your computer in a pretty font, print it out and tape it onto the craft board. Obvioulsy you can chose to decorate it or whatever. Lots of people do this and it cuts down paper costs
-another way to cut down paper costs is to not order thank you notes from the same place you order wedding invites. Its often cheaper to go to walmart, the grocery store, or craft stores and buy thank you cards. nobody will care that the thanks you didn't match the invites, they will just care that they are being thanked
-if a friend has a nice classic car, use that instead of a limo. FH has a 85 Monte Carlo and that's what we're using
-go to a tux shop that will give you a discount on the grooms tux if you rent a certain number of other tuxes. many shops will do this, just ask.
-custom create packages with photographers and videographers. we did this and got a better price with all the things we wanted
-make sure you get copy rights of your images. this will save you so much when it comes time to print your wedding photos.
-find a well decorated ceremony spot (either a pretty church or a gardne) and you'll cut down your decorating costs
-use the bouqets as decorations at the reception
-don't buy your veil, tiara, jewelry, or shoes from a bridal shop. they spike the prices.
-search ebay, craigslist, and other sites for awesome deals.
-buy nice paper plates in your wedding colors instead of renting china. it costs less and you don't have to worry about anything breaking.

"I don't care how much it hurts. I don't care if its a brick wall disaster. I'd rather fight with you everday than be happy for one second with anyone else." <3

Kevin & Mari: 11/09/06 to Forever.


MrsM2009 Posts : 422 Registered: 3/16/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:21 PM Go to message in response to: CountryPrincess

Yeah, I'm with Pharm here - I find the 10k statement a little offensive. Our budget is 50k (my parents were amazing and saved up 25k, and FH and I are contributing the other half and paying for our honeymoon), and we STILL use the tricks the other posters here to figure out where to save money and how to best spend our money! We make these same determinations - do we really need a limo? Should we serve a lamb option or is beef fine? Should I splurge on a dress and cut back on flowers? IMO, the key thing about budgeting is deciding what's most important to you, and putting your money into those things as efficiently as possible.

To me, it helped to have a wedding planner here because She's been incredible in helping me deterine what things will make the biggest impact (i.e., where will I get the biggest bang for my buck?). The invitations weren't that important to me, so we're going totally DIY with them. My mom can order the cardstock through her work for free, so literally all we are paying for is postage (she does printing, so her resources are essentially giving her their remaindered paper and her company will do the printing for us). On the other hand, the venue was VERY important to me, so we picked one on the more expensive side. My mom really wanted live music, so we are splurging on a great band, but I wasn't interested in a $20k vera wang gown, so I have a simple $1200 Watters gown that's perfect for me. It's all about deciding what's important to you and stretching your money as far as you can in the direction you want to go!


HappyGirl13 Posts : 1,298 Registered: 4/21/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:50 PM Go to message in response to: MrsM2009

I agree with Aunt's statement that you should examine everything and decide whether you need it. And of course Howard's advice that the best way to cut down your budget is the guest list. And my general advice is to decide what you don't care about. If you don't care about it, don't spend a lot of time or money on it.

I was about a $35K bride because my parents had a ton of people they wanted to invite (we had 160 guests) and they were willing to foot the bill for them. But if hubby and I had paid for it and kept everything the same except for cutting down the guest list to around 70 and having an hors d'oeuvres reception (rather than a full meal), we could've done it for around $8500.

But we did watch our budget anyway. I pretty much behaved as if we were paying in regard to a lot of things. So are specific ways we cut down on the budget:

*We did assigned seating, but I didn't care about having pretty table assignment cards. So I bought solid-colored card stock at Target and my MOH and I cut them down to assignment-card size. They weren't frilly, but they were colorful and simple and that was fine with me.

*No limo. Hubby and I drove our own cars--old Honda and and old Toyota. Again, we didn't care about that.

*We planned to spend our wedding night at home because we didn't feel the need to spring for a hotel room. In the end my parents paid for our wedding night at a nice hotel as a gift, but we were fine with foregoing that.

*Number of groomsmen/bridesmaids. Each attendant you have equals one more gift you have to buy. Plus etiquette says you're supposed to pay for their hotel room if they're from out of town.

*Skip the inner envelope on the invites if possible. It could save you postage.

*Skip the favors. I always wonder how many people actually like getting, or use, favors anyway? (No offense to anyone--I just really don't care about getting or giving them.)

*Programs: I made ours from card stock, two-sided, half of an 8 1/2"x11" sheet. I did it on Word at home and copied it onto card stock at Kinko's. Honestly can't remember how much it was, but it was cheap. Another poster, Nalamienea, did hers for cheap, too, but they were much prettier than mine. Hopefully she'll come on here and say how she did hers.

*The dress: I honestly didn't care about that, either. I wanted to go for something inexpensive but cute from Macy's, like a cute cocktail dress. Or even something secondhand. But DH insisted he thought I should wear something bridal and I wanted to wear something he would like, so I shopped a sale at David's Bridal. Dress was $450 plus alterations for around $250=$700. More expensive than some, but not terrible. And I actually loved it.

*Does the venue you've picked include any sort of centerpieces? Some venues will at least include votive candles, if nothing else. If you don't care about centerpieces (I didn't), go with what the venue provides. We had a daytime wedding and the venue provided single-stem orchids in a bud vase on each table. Simple, pretty, and we didn't pay extra. So in terms of flowers I only paid for my and my attendant's bouquet, 2 corsages (DH's mom and stepmom), one nosegay bouquet (my mom) and 5 boutonnieres=approx. $300 for flowers.

*You don't have to do a full meal. Do cake and a champagne toast. Or hors d'oeuvres, cake and champagne toast.

Edited by: HappyGirl13 on Jan 28, 2009 10:51 PM


CatStandish Posts : 2,766 Registered: 6/20/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:59 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

Some of my tricks:

--We got engaged in August and planned an autumn colored wedding. SO... when Hobby Lobby was having their "hey, let's get rid of all these decorations at 75% off to make room for the Christmas Stuff", we hit them up and got four times what we would have for the same price.
--I waited until the Christmas Lights (yes, I'm using white lights with white string) were on sale and picked them up there, rather than at Michaels in the bridal section.
--I picked out my dress, but since it was from David's, and they seem to have a major sale every three months--I waited to get it until the sale
--I wanted an embellished veil. However, those are like $200. My dress was $350... I can't justify a stupid piece of tulle being more than half the cost of the dress. GEESH! So, I did buy my VEIL at David's....but I bought the basic veil, then I eBayed and got some Swarovski pearls, which I am sewing on my veil. (I've since read that Nala got her basic veil on eBay and embellished it).
--Remember: eBay is your friend (but it's one of those friends which will talk about you in the bathroom sometimes, so you can't trust this friend completely <G>) Check it out there.
--DJs are nice. I'd love to have a DJ. DJ's are expensive. We have an iPod. The iPod is not expensive.
--Sometimes....it's who ya know, ya know? For example: between FH and I, we know a FREAKISH amount of people in the wedding biz. My flowers are coming from a friend of mine... he only organizes a regional bridal event and was a wedding event planner (everything) and florist. His arrangement frequently are featured in a state bridal magazine. He is doing it at cost. High school friends are photographers--wedding photographers. We're paying their travel. They're giving us the wedding photography. We're paying cost to get here.
--Another friend has table linens (Her mom made them for her wedding) and has said we can use them
--Three words: Oriental Trading Company
--Get a costco membership: Our catering company is CostCo. Should cost us about $700 (including plates, etc) to feed 100 guests.
--We don't drink. Why should we buy alcohol for our wedding?
--Invites: DIY. We are printing ourselves. Box of 50 for $29.99 at Michaels (for 40% off...love the coupons)
--Don't make your invites too heavy so that you can't use regular stamps.
--This is IMPORTANT: GO BUY YOUR FOREVER STAMPS NOW! Rate is going up in May.

The biggest thing: spend on what is important to you, not on what is not.

For example: I couldn't give a rat's butt about the cake cutter and server. I really couldn't. So we got a $10 set from Walmart. We looked at doing the unity candle thing, but we were only doing that because 'everyone does it'. We axed it.

Our cake was more important. FH is diabetic, and I wanted him to be able to eat cake....as much as he wanted. So we had to find a baker who could do the diabetic cake. That means we don't get as much price shopping. However, we did still get a good deal... AND our pastry chef is diabetic. The diabetic cake is good; though the main cake is going to be regular. He's going to decorate the two to match (we're not getting a gynormous diabetic cake)

It does help if a craft store is going out of business....that was a HUGE boon to us. We got our 'guest photomat' (complete with frame) for less than $8 (we're not doing a guestbook, we're having them sign a photomat). We also got a stamp with something like our logo on it (claddagh) and gold ink pad. All stuff (except the invites) will have the stamp (like the thank yous). The invites will have wax seal.

now... one tip I will tell you to avoid like the plague: DO NOT, under any circumstances, no matter how deep the discount, pay any vendor 100% up front. Why? it's not just that the vendor won't show--it's because that is your deposit....the amount you stand to lose if for some reason something happens and you have to cancel. You might save 10%....but what happens if you have to reschedule or (heaven forbid) cancel? You've just lost the full amount, rather than the deposit.


Visit our Wedding Website


nanette927 Posts : 1,748 Registered: 1/28/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 28, 2009 11:48 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

It's kind of hard to say what you should do with out. There were so many things that I"thought" I had to have.

I didn't know that your budget was to include your dress and stuff.
The reception and ceremony: or'derves, sit down 7 course dinner for 65 people, Dj, open bar, cake, limo, FRESH flowers, center peices, PHOTOGRAPHY and tips and gratuity. It would have been more but DH did some work for them in exchange for cutting our bill. My dress, rings, inculding our honey moon for 5 days and 5 nights at one of our best hotels in Las Vegas. All came to $25,000 ish maybe a bit more so I guess I'm an "over budget bride". lol. I still think we did great for all that we got and considering the city that we live in.

I wanted to do the programs but figured I didn't really need them.
I did favors and they were inexpensive thanks to EBAY! I spent all together around $75 total on them.
James and I both agree that if we could have done it over again we probably wouldn't do the sit down dinner and have done a coctail reception for $3000. less.

My honey bought me a NEW car for my Birthday!

Edited by: nanette927 on Jan 28, 2009 11:51 PM


Franko Posts : 128 Registered: 11/15/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 29, 2009 7:33 AM Go to message in response to: digwriter

invite only few closest friends and family mambers, dont invite 100 of people, i think number of peple is the biggest cost factor, make your parents pay for it :), just a joke, well there are so many options, you jsut need to compare prices of different service providers


I bought our rings @


ilovehim Posts : 179 Registered: 6/8/06
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 29, 2009 11:57 AM Go to message in response to: Franko

My tips would be: decide early what is most important to you and what you really don't care about.

-I bought Vera Wang toasting flutes because I would use them again, I didn't buy a serving set b/c I would never use that again

-I didn't have a limo b/c honestly...who cares

-I used fresh roses and hypericium berries for our bouquets (roses are usually inexpensive). Some of the feaux flowers at hobby lobby and michaels look pretty real and you can catch some good coupons for those places in the paper if you want to make the bouquets yourself

-My venue did the center pieces (saved me a bundle)

-We had a full course, but you could do a cake and dessert reception

-Usually Sunday weddings are less expensive than Friday or Saturday

-Have as few attendants as you can. I firmly believe in attendant's gifts, and nice ones at that afterall, you're asking alot from these people. So, having as few as possible will cut down on bouquets and attendant's gifts

-Photography and videography were very important to me. BUT I didn't want one of those huge poster size pictures of me at the door, so we didn't get that. I didn't order mother's books, but instead I had the photographer put the entire album on 2 cd roms for our mothers. Also, you want to make sure you get a quality guy, but consider how much you really care about that "Top, star, gold" package.

-Don't over do it on the cake. We didn't get fondant icing (the smooth kind) because it tastes gross and DH doesn't like it. Worked out good too b/c buttercream is much cheaper. Our cake was the highlight of everything...very beautiful. But we had SOOO much left over. Don't get a huge cake if you don't need one

-Favors. Eh, think about what you do with the junk you get at weddings....throw it away. We had hershey kisses sitting around in crystal jars and bubbles I ordered from oriental trading (the long glass tubes). Trust me, no one is going to miss that match book

-Invites were very important to me, so I went absolutely top notch. EXCEPT, I didn't get lined envelopes...I mean really..who cares about that

-Ring pillow, sign in book, flower girl baskets, shoes, jewelry....DO NOT buy these from the bridal shop they are way over priced there. Look at hobby lobby or on line to find some nice stuff.

-Try to find a venue that you LOVE and that you won't have to change much or anything. Also, the more that's included the better (linens, china, silver, decor)

-Open bar. We had beer, wine and a speciality drink. $7/person vs. $15/person for open bar. If having alcohol is important you might want to ask about doing a beer, wine, speciality drink combo.

-Discounts!! Don't be afraid to ask for a discount. DH and I are both military, so we asked for military, student, how can we cut the cost. All they can say is NO.

-Shop around. If you're not completely happy with the vendor, shop around. DO NOT let anyone pressure you into buying right then.

Thats about it, I guess!!! Good Luck!!!

I'm from Louisiana.  The home of good food, bad education, and highly opinionated Catholics.




digwriter Posts : 25 Registered: 12/19/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 29, 2009 12:54 PM Go to message in response to: ilovehim

Oh wow, everyone has so many great cost saving tips. I'm actually on a very purposeful mission, and that's to create a wonderful wedding that's far below the national average. I'm doing it for budgetary purposes, but mainly to prove that it can be done.

LOVE the seating chart board idea. Save on paper and really, do I honestly care where uncle Mo sits at table 5? So long as people are grouped by table that's all I care about.

Off-season weddings rule! Absolutely. We're going for November. A bit nippy up here in Toront, but the colors should still be gorgeous. Even better, it saves us on the venue and on the DJ. We've even found a DJ who reduces his costs by half in off-season!

Craftstores FTW for sure! We will be knee deep in DIY

Love the tip about beer, wine, signiture cocktail. We're considering table wine and champagne toast or nothing, since we really don't drink at all...just wanted something to greese those dancing wheels. Last thing we want is a wedding where no one will dance.


karebeartg Posts : 831 Registered: 6/25/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 29, 2009 1:38 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

Two thoughts on saving money on alcohol.
1. Try to find somewhere you can bring in your own and it'll be MUCH cheaper.
2. Our venue strongly recommended that we look into being charged by drink rather than paying for the full open bar (called a host bar). The nice thing about this is that to the guests, it looks exactly the same as a full open bar (because they don't get charged), so it doesn't have any of the negative connotations of a cash bar.
Their math explaination made total sense to me - if it's $12/hr for an open bar and $5/drink, you'd need to average more than two drinks per person per hour to have the open bar be a better deal. Even if you have some BIG drinkers, you are probably going to also have grandma or a friend who doesn't drink or just normal people not drinking 8-10 drinks in one evening. The hard part is that you can't really know what the number will be until the reception is over.
3. (I came up with a third) - you might not need to have a champagne toast - you could just let everyone toast with whatever they already have in their hands.


Toast Posts : 480 Registered: 9/10/08
Re: What are your top tips for saving money on a wedding?
Posted: Jan 29, 2009 1:43 PM Go to message in response to: digwriter

we are having our ceremony at the same place as our reception. This cuts down on any car driving, or needing a limo to get from one place to another. The grounds are grogeous, and the ceremony will be in a sunken garden, so we dont need any flowers/alter pieces for the ceremony. The venue is also providing the chairs for the ceremony.

Also, since the ceremony and reception is in one place, and its so beautiful, there is no driving around for pictures either. which, can save an hour of photography time.

our venue is including the cake.
they also have battery operated candles in hurrcane lamps as centerpieces and have table numbers in frames for us to use. so, thats helps there. We dont need to spend any money on table centerpieces.

You can let your favors double as your escort cards. We, for example are having an october wedding, so we are thinking of using little pumpkins and tying cardstock to the stem with everyones names and table numbers on them. Also, depending on what you use for favors/escort cards they can also do triple duty as table decorations. Say, for example, you had a very small vase with one small flower stem in each. It could be the favor, table decoration and escort card.

DJ's are much cheaper than a band. After all, you need to feed your vendors too. So, one meal is a lot cheaper than 4 or 5. Ipod/MP3 player is a good idea too.

Have the same musician do your ceremony music and cocktail hour. Most bands/dj's will charge you a lot less overall if you do your ceremony/reception and cocktail hour with them. For example, if they normally charge $800 for the reception and $300 for the cocktail hour, maybe they will do both for $900 instead of $1100.

Cut down on your photography package. If you pay a photographer to just shoot your wedding and then give you all the proofs (and the right to copy) you can make your own photobooks online. Shutterfly has some amazing stuff! and Snapfish, Kodak...etc. You can have a 8x10 photo book with 50 pages for like $50 rather than $500!

Also, only have your photograher take the formal shots and then leave. Buy disposable cameras for each table and have guests take shots during the reception. Maybe have the photographer do the ceremony, the formal shots, the first dances and then thats it. You could easily shave off 3 hours of their fee time.

Also look into local art schools. lots of young college kids are looking for gigs and could do it for cheap. (Same thing for a dj service too. lots of young kids)

If you have any younger brothers and sisters, or cousins, nieces/nephews have them chauffer you around. No need to rent a limo. Just have someone drive you. And, if you really want a nice new car to arrive in, rent one! Go to a local place and rent one for a day or two! It would be less than $200 for 2 days rather than $500 for 4 hours!

I bought the sample dress from the bridal shop. Save $600! The dress I wanted was about to be discontinued, and I could have ordered a brand new one, or just buy the sample. Since it fit me well, and had nothing wrong with it, I just bought the sample!

Use the bridesmaids bouquets as table decor. I plan on using mine to put on the buffet table or cake table. No one wants their bouquet taking up a ton of room on the table anyway.

you dont need save the dates, unless your place is far away from most guests. And, even with that, you can make them. We just bought a package of card stock for less than $10 and printed them ourselves. Made something on Microsoft Word.

And yes, DIY invites are great! this site is cool....http://invitesite.com/. they make up the invites for you...like cut the paper, send you the ribbons, etc. all you do is print them and assemble them. They are fairly reasonable...less than $3 an invite.

You can use artificial flowers instead of real. Just go to the craft store, but some you like, bunch them together, tie a ribbon around the stems and your done.

Alot of grocery stores around here (US) have floral shops within them, so they are cheaper. Also, you can order fresh flowers online, have them delivered, and then put the bouquets together yourself. And, the grocery stores can make you a wedding cake as well. You can have a nice little round one to cut with your husband, and then a big sheet cake in the back that they cut up for the guests. Would be less than $100!

Be a little weary of the cocktail receptions. Even though they are being served mostly appetizers, it can add up, and quickly!

My friend is not having an open bar. Instead, she is having a cash bar, but with a signature drink. She is putting a couple hundred bucks towards the signature drink price, so that way her guests can have the signature drink at half price. You can also do an open bar that is only beer, wine and soda.

Cant wait to hear what else you come up with!!


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