Religulous type Question

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CatStandish Posts : 2,766 Registered: 6/20/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 17, 2008 5:17 PM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

(Okay...it has to be a browser thing. I think I like my inept home browser that doesn't respond to anyone better than this deleting everything junk. I'm thinking another email to b.c to tell them to have their techies cross check on alternate major browsers as this system is just fracked!)

Another thing, and it seems hollow to me, whenever something crappy happens like : your mom gets cancer. "Oh, it's all part of God's plan" (my mom doesn't have cancer, but if she did, I'd find that really hollow 'consolation'. So God wants my mom's life to suck? Well, I got a few issues with him over this nifty little 'plan' of his!) Or someone dies "It's God's will". And to me that makes it harder for a person of faith to really grieve because grieving would be like saying God was wrong. Or even more fun: God never puts more on us than we can bear. Oh great, so if I can't hack it, now I've let God down. GREAT.

These remarks always seem to me to be completely insenstive, and yet that is what they expect to hear. God is supposedly the Father -- but he's pretty abusive in these instances.

When I was much younger, before I pretty much disavowed myself of the Baptist church. I tried very hard to make the two worlds mesh. And everytime I found a way to do it, I was told "Oh no, that's not right." God made science....he gave us the brains to figure out the way the world worked. No.... science is a test of faith (Why?). I'd decide one was sacred truth and one was physical truth -- both true and both needed. "The Bible isn't a myth. This really happened." OOookay. No matter what I did to try to resolve the two, I was told 'no' . SO I stopped trying , and I ditched the one that didn't make sense. And I do find the placating talk.... God's Will, God's Plan....to be patronizing and unsympathetic.

Misty

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goldenLOVE Posts : 44 Registered: 9/8/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 17, 2008 6:40 PM Go to message in response to: luvathena

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. If not believing in your choice, than so be it. I choose to believe because I know God has worked in my life. Im no holier-than-thou Christian and by most standards Im not saved or born again. However, I know God is real simply because He has moved within my life. As far as attributing my grandmother's bout with cancer to Him --- its true. That is what I BELIEVE. If she would have died, I would know God knows best... so, I would BELIEVE her death was the right thing. Some people dont get that but so be it. It is what it is.
I believe everything is an act of God... whether good, great, bad, or horrible. From the largest tsunami to the smallest tropical storm. Death is an act of God. What you may consider karma, I consider God's will. Its pointless to even go back and forth because clearly, we are all stuck to our own ideals and beliefs.

Cat: I agree, people who use their religions as a way to kill and do those horrible things give religion a bad name. They give their god or muhammad or whoever a bad name. Now, Im not sure what Bible or Kuran or whatever they are reading... but in the one I read and study, it does not condone these acts. As for homosexuality, I do not believe it is right in the eyes of God simply because that is what I was taught and my Bible DOES speak on homosexuality. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because of their inhabitants sinful ways... what stands out the most is that the men of that city were homosexual. I am against homosexuality in all aspects... however, I DO NOT JUDGE people based on their sexual preference. It is my belief that only God can judge people. The Bible does say that he who is without sin may cast the first stone... no one was able to do so in that story simply because EVERY ONE has sinned.

MsD: I do not blame God for anything... I speak from my heart and what I believe in. Yes, I do believe my grandmother's recovery was because of God. At the same token, I believe God has a hand in every thing that happens. Sure, things arent going to be all gumdrops and sugarpops but God will always be God regardless. There are things I do not understand... things I wish would never happen... such as the rape of a little girl by her father, the murder of a chld by a stray bullet, the death of an innocent child ran over by a drunk driver... I dont understand these things and I dont blame these things on man. God controls everything. People are given choices. God wants us to do right but He doesnt force us to do so. Thats how it all began. Adam and Eve in the garden with that temptation... the choice to eat the forbidden fruit or follow God's word. They chose to eat the fruit. The people who commit these heinous acts CHOOSE to do so. It is screwed up in our eyes (from an earthly standpoint) that people die at a young age or have these screwed up things happen to them. But in the spiritual standpoint, I believe God does not make mistakes. When I was 12 years old I lost a dear friend to me. He was 16 at the time... shot in the head at point blank range by a young man (he had a fist fight with earlier) accompanied by his uncle. I did not understand it then... even now, I wish things would have turned out different for him. But I know my faith in God kept me sane... kept me grounded... helped comfort me through that difficult time.

kelley: God is for everyone... BUT if you choose that religion is not for you... that is your choice. Again, I do not JUDGE anyone. That is not my job neither is it my concern. Whether that 6 year old died or survived, her mother and those of faith still attributes it to God. Her death is God's will... a part of His plan. Her death probably bought her mother closer to God. Her death could have made her mother a betetr person. Her death could have saved another life in some way possibly the drunk driver could have changed his ways... . If she would have lived... her testimony of survival could have changed the lives of people... made people realize that life is short... anything is possible. I believe God has a hand in everything... things we consider evil or just "fucked up", are ALL a part of God's plan

Im going on and on and on... sorry. I just wanted to address mostly everything.
"If I had to choose to love you or to breathe I would use my last breathe to say I love you."

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CatStandish Posts : 2,766 Registered: 6/20/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 17, 2008 9:21 PM Go to message in response to: goldenLOVE

I love how you've put that.... the Bible does teach us that we're not supposed to judge--God is. We might (or might not) agree with how others live; however, ultimately, that is something that is to be sorted out in the ever after.


Thanks!


Misty

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MisterKelley Posts : 258 Registered: 7/11/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 17, 2008 9:59 PM Go to message in response to: goldenLOVE




I am against homosexuality in all aspects... however, I DO NOT JUDGE people based on their sexual preference.


WTF!!!! This is ridiculous!! of course you judge people. You just did. You formed an opinion, this opinion must have been made by you after contemplating the subject and coming to a conclusion. This is called judging. We all do it, everyone of us forms an opinion of everyone we meet. And to back it up, I bet you believe that people who are homosexual are homosexual by choice. Well I hate to be the one to tell you this but homosexuality does not occur in Humans exclusively. It has been documented that animals exhibit this behavior as well. For the "Choice" theory to be true, some animals must have made that behavior by choice since you can't apply the theory to one species and not another. Did animals make this decision? Of course they didn't, nature determined that. What I find completely mind blowing is that people can take a tragic event such as the untimely death of a human and make a statement such as " It was a tragedy but it was god's will. Or,"It's all a part of God's plan". What it really is is our way of dealing with a tragic event in order to make ourselves feel better and find closure. People find more acceptability in the tragic deaths of people than they do in someone's sexual preference. A child is decapitated in a horrible accident, well that's God's will, a guy has sex with another guy? well god never intended that (because I find it repulsive and therefore god does too, because it's really all about me but hey! I'm not judging) and therefore gay people have no possible chance of being saved.

MisterKelley - Now specializing in Trainwrecks and Jackassery

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SocalGal Posts : 456 Registered: 6/3/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 2:40 AM Go to message in response to: MisterKelley

I have a different take on a view things. And yes, this is another lengthy post.

To those of you who think it's trite to say horrible things are part of God's plan: I submit that we are never going to be able to comprehend what Go'd plan is. All we have to go by is our own narrow existence, colored by our own experiences. To us, the death of a child is a terrible tragedy, often made more so by other circumstances. But we only hear or experience part of the story. We have no idea what kind of ripples spread out because of that event. Of course, people are going to experience sorrow, but maybe they learn to live life a little fuller, love a little deeper. Now, I'm not saying that God is so impotent that He needs tragedy in order to get his point across...I'm just saying that we are not seeing the whole scope of human existence, cannot comprehend the choices and decisions that were taken that led up to a specific event, or the choices and decisions that will be made because of it.

On judgement: Everybody judges everybody else, and everybody thinks their judgements are justified. The trick is to realize that your standards for judgement are self-centered, self-serving and are always changing. We judge whether something is good or bad by how it personally affects us, or how something similar turned out. For example: I gets ridiculously hot where I live, but there's usually a breeze to help cut the heat. On Saturday there wasn't one, and I hated how still the air was, because it made me miserable to be outside making deliveries. But taking just a small step back from my own existence, the lack of a breeze was a good thing...it made the firefighters' work in Orange County quite a bit easier, if only for a little while, which in the long run might be the difference between a family losing their house and it being saved. I guess I can stand the heat.

On religion: Religion gets in the way of itself. People get wrapped up in the institution, and lose sight of the relationship. Personally, I think God must dislike religion, and the horrors that have been perpertrated because of it. I highly doubt that any one religion has it exactly right...I happen to think one in particular is just a little bit closer, and I model my personal relationship with God based on the majority of it's principals and ideals, but I also continue to explore it on an individual level. It's a lot easier to allow new thoughts and experiences that way, and it's a lot more interesting to continuously challenge what you thought you knew...at least, it is for me. And while I generally agree that sharing your faith is a good thing, and it's always moving to think that you might have had an impact on someone's eternity, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about converting them to Christianity.

If any of what I've said is interesting to anybody, I highly recommend a book called The Shack by WM. Paul Young. It touched on a lot of things I've mentioned above (and quite a few others), but in a much more profound and intelligible way.



True love never has a happy ending; true love never ends.

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CatStandish Posts : 2,766 Registered: 6/20/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 8:06 AM Go to message in response to: CatStandish

There is a difference between judging (forming an opinion, good or bad) and taking action on that judgement. If I, for example, think homosexuality is evil (I don't...just a hypothetical), but I leave the gays alone and do not harass them -- do not beat them up, do not deny them rights, do not interfere with them, do not interact with them. It's a matter of they are not a part of my life, so I'm not actively involved.

That is one thing. However, if I think homosexuality is evil and I disown my child, or I support hateful deeds (like gay bashing or gay beating) or I stand with signs at the funerals of soldiers who died for this country that states that God is punishing America for gays (a truly heartless act to have a family burying a child who died for this country to be harassed by a bunch of hateful nutjobs) or I campaign to preven gays from marrying--then I've taken action. I've acted as a judge and I've started to punish.

The Bible also says that God loves each of us.

And the Bible does not decide which sin is a greater sin -- homosexuality, lying, stealing. Sin is sin is sin, and according to the Bible: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. ALL. And Sin is painful to him. ALL sin. There is not a sin factor scale that rates each sin based on a point scale of horrendousness.

Misty

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HillyBride92008 Posts : 207 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 9:24 AM Go to message in response to: MisterKelley

SoCal & Cat: Thank you, these are my sentiments!! Everybody does judge, but wether you act on it or not is a different story.

You know what kind of thing pisses me off...someone who says that they don't judge, but then go out and vote no on things like Prop 8 in California. Yeah, you don't judge yet you take away the rights of people with a different view than yours. I'm sure God won't judge you later based on that. rolls eyes

I also agree that no particular religion is correct, and I do happen to follow one more closely than the rest. I don't believe in everything they teach though, nor have I ever read the entire Bible. In fact other than a few passages and Genesis (the only book I got through in my attempt to read the whole Bible), I haven't really read anything. But hey, I'm Catholic...so we all must be going to hell anyway!

Seriously though, I do know more verse than you think, my DH and I have had many discussions (analytical & otherwise...) on verses in the Bible. I'm content, however, talking to God and believing in what I choose. I could never have "blind" faith in anything. I built my particular faith long before I was Christened (which was only 2 years ago btw....so yes, I had original sin for 22 years). Though I am now "Catholic", I am more who I felt God made me as....just Hillary.

~ Living the married life

Hillary & Sean September 20, 2008 Laughing

 


 

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 10:09 AM Go to message in response to: HillyBride92008

The trick is to realize that your standards for judgement are self-centered, self-serving and are always changing.

So true, SoCal.

I'm always perplexed by the subject of choices and "God has his hand in everything". (I'm just riffing right now, not speaking to anyone in particular). Because if God has his hand in everything, then God must also have his hand in our choices as well. Thus, he has his hand in homosexuality, in either creating homosexuality itself, or giving a homosexual a choice to be happy or not.

My husband is fond of saying "God has a plan for everyone." I tend to think that's just another way of saying "Find your own way toward being happy." It seems to me that if you're happy and fulfilled, you're living what must be God's plan. When I expressed my frusteration at others judgment of my agnosticicm (not on this board, but generally in life) he said Why would you let anyone else tell you what God's plan is for you? Which is just another way of saying that others will always judge, but you've got to figure out what works for you.

I think people do so many things to ultimately reach the same result. I'm agnostic, yet I still pray. Yet sometimes I think I would get the same results if I just meditated. I think people like to say "It's in God's hands" because its a way of giving up control over something over which they had no way of controlling in the first place -- and thus giving up control is a way to feel in control over something uncontrollable. Think about it: why do we pray when a loved one is in surgery? We have no control over what is going on in that operating room -- but the prayer helps us feel like we do. I feel awkward when someone asks me to pray for their loved ones, like they occasionally do on these boards. . .but I understand why someone would -- it gives them the feeling of doing something, and that feeling of being able to do something makes the individual feel in control, which makes them feel happier generally about their lives.

Just thinking out loud. . . .


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CatStandish Posts : 2,766 Registered: 6/20/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 11:17 AM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Here's a random thing that offends the heck out of me: "People of good conscience" when referring to the religious. There is an article right now about how Bush is still pissing me off -- basically saying that people don't have to do their job if they object on moral or religious grounds. Pharmacists who don't want to dispense birth control, because they object on moral / religious grounds....nurses / doctors who don't want to perform needed surgeries or discuss sterilizations or prescribe birth control on those grounds. I am sorry: if you don't like those kinds of tasks....then DON'T BE AN OBSTETRICIAN. Don't be a nurse in an OB/GYN office. Don't be a pharmacist. No one forced you into those fields. That is part of the job requirement.

This "People of good Conscience" crap is offensive because it is like saying "Hey you... yeah, you on the birth control. Right, I'm talking to you you good for nothing slut. How dare you!" A) there are reasons to be on birth control which are outside of birth control and B) control your OWN body. Keep off of mine.

I'm not saying participate, but if you choose a field which you know is in conflict with your faith, then perhaps you should have chosen another field of study. That was YOU deciding you were better than everyone else....not you being hired in a job as a secretary and then finding out that the standard job requirements were different. Pharmacists dispense medication. SHOCKER. OB/GYNS work with women -- some having babies, some wanting to not. If you don't want to do the BC thing, then just be a baby doc, not a gynecologist. It isn't discriminatory hiring practice to not hire someone who will not do the job which the company requires. That's fraudulent application on the part of the employee -- implying that they will do the job for which they were hired when they will NOT.

I take offense at emergency doctors feeling like they don't have to offer a rape victim...their PATIENT...emergency BC. I'm sorry... I thought they swore and oath to do no harm, and that includes putting their religion over their patient. Religion needs to be checked at the door. If you can't do your job and practice your faith both--find another career.

Imagine, if you will, a health conscience person working the check out at Walmart when a morbidly obese man approaches her lane. His cart is loaded down with potato chips, ice cream, tv dinners, candy. Nothing remotely healthy -- except the TV dinners. And she decides that she cannot, in good conscience, check him out because those items could kill him and he needs to go on a diet. Walmart would be SO sued. I see this as no different than a Pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription on moral grounds.

Religion does not have a monopoly on morality and I am sick and tired of the religious acting as if they do. And those holy 10 Commandments that the Christians like to beat over our heads? HALF of them are how to practice THEIR faith. The laws? don't steal, don't kill... yeah, those had NEVER been thought of before Moses came off the mount. NOVEL concepts those! NOT.

Misty

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goldenLOVE Posts : 44 Registered: 9/8/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 19, 2008 9:32 AM Go to message in response to: MisterKelley

MisterKelley wrote: I am against homosexuality in all aspects... however, I DO NOT JUDGE people based on their sexual preference.

"WTF!!!! This is ridiculous!! of course you judge people. You just did.
You formed an opinion, this opinion must have been made by you after
contemplating the subject and coming to a conclusion. This is called
judging.......And to back it up, I bet you believe that people who are homosexual are
homosexual by choice. Well I hate to be the one to tell you this but
homosexuality does not occur in Humans exclusively. It has been
documented that animals exhibit this behavior as well.... and therefore gay people have no possible chance of being saved.
"



The fact that I am against homosexuality does not mean I am against
homosexuals! I have NEVER done anything to seperate myself from anyone
who lives a different lifestyle than I. Some of my friends in high
school were gay men and women and we are still friends. I think your
notion that just because I have an opinion means I am judging them is
ridiculous. For someone to NOT have an opinion at all on any matter is
ridiculous... I am entitiled to that opinion and my view is not hurting
ANYONE. Whether people are homosexual by choice or by birth is completely irrelevant. Whether they are choosing it or not I still do not believe in homosexuality. Point blank. I know all about animals humping each other... blah blah blah. So, I guess in your eyes the human race isnt quite so superior either huh? We're all just a bunch of dumb animals... WTF? Now THAT is ridiculous. Clearly, we are able to make choices... if we are on the same mental threshold as these homosexual animals... why is murder outlawed? Animals kill each other all the time... or is that foreign to you also? Also, I have NEVER said homosexuals have no chance of being saved... their relationship with God is none of my concern. All of my gay friends believe in God, go to church, pray... yada yada yada. As I KEEP SAYING God has the final say... God is the ONLY ONE with the right to judge anyone... but I do have the right to have my own opinions... and as I said before also EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINIONS.. I know Im being a little rude but I feel like I was attacked because I am against homosexuality... bottom line: get over it... believe what you want and I will continue to believe what I want. Its just that simple... life goes on.
"If I had to choose to love you or to breathe I would use my last breathe to say I love you."

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 19, 2008 10:39 AM Go to message in response to: CatStandish

Cat, your post made me laugh in recognition because I totally agree with you and think about that kind of stuff all the time. I mean, people are such hypocrites. We enforce the "you can't have more than one wife" rule on Mormons because despite their own beliefs, they have to obey the law, yet say "you have to dispense the morning-after pill" to a pharmacist, and suddenly they have some imaginary right to not do their jobs.

You're absolutely right. There's a job description. . .if you can't do the job, for whatever reason, don't apply. I mean, Jews who observe the Sabbath don't take jobs requiring them to work on weekends for a reason, y'know? Why do people think that the rules apply differently to them?

Drives me batty.


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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,590 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 19, 2008 11:07 PM Go to message in response to: CatStandish

Point blank. I know all about animals humping each other... blah blah blah. So, I guess in your eyes the human race isnt quite so superior either huh? We're all just a bunch of dumb animals... WTF? Now THAT is ridiculous.



Ummm no. That wasnt the point at ALL. The point he was making is that homosexuality is not a choice. It is part of who someone is, it is how a person is born. The example of animals was to say that the human race are not the only ones who have homosexual tendancies. It is found in all forms of nature and animals. Nothing was ever said about us being a bunch of dumb animals. And yes, you can have your opinions, but to say that whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is "irrelevant" is completely ridiculous. OF COURSE its relevant. Its not sexual preference, its sexual orientation. You cant choose whether or not you are female, or black - or gay. Its the same thing.

Your post makes little sense. Sorry.

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Edited by: kelleyiskelley on Nov 19, 2008 11:08 PM

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goldenLOVE Posts : 44 Registered: 9/8/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 20, 2008 8:44 AM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

kelleyiskelley wrote:
Point blank. I know all about animals humping each other... blah blah blah. So, I guess in your eyes the human race isnt quite so superior either huh? We're all just a bunch of dumb animals... WTF? Now THAT is ridiculous.



Ummm no. That wasnt the point at ALL. The point he was making is that homosexuality is not a choice. It is part of who someone is, it is how a person is born. The example of animals was to say that the human race are not the only ones who have homosexual tendancies. It is found in all forms of nature and animals. Nothing was ever said about us being a bunch of dumb animals. And yes, you can have your opinions, but to say that whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is "irrelevant" is completely ridiculous. OF COURSE its relevant. Its not sexual preference, its sexual orientation. You cant choose whether or not you are female, or black - or gay. Its the same thing.

Your post makes little sense. Sorry.

What you consider relevant... I dont. Maybe you feel being gay is similar to being black (and I guess mentioning being black was supposed to make me understand since Im black...hahaha) but I disagree COMPLETELY. Like I said previously... I could care less. I dont care if its a choice or whether u were born that way... I dont care because homosexuality does not apply to my existence. Im not that way... therefore I havent taken the time to try to understand why certain people are that way. Its just like women who are fat.... It doesnt matter if its because they eat too much or because they have the obese gene... doesnt effect me either way. I understand clearly why the animal comment was made... and again, so what? Animals do a lot of things we dont do... they mate with their own offspring... so, should we just condone incest simply because " It is found in all forms of nature and animals." Absolutely NOT!
And finally... your post makes little sense to me also... but no apologies here.


"If I had to choose to love you or to breathe I would use my last breathe to say I love you."

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MisterKelley Posts : 258 Registered: 7/11/08
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 20, 2008 12:15 PM Go to message in response to: goldenLOVE

goldenLOVE wrote:


What you consider relevant... I dont. Maybe you feel being gay is similar to being black (and I guess mentioning being black was supposed to make me understand since Im black...hahaha) but I disagree COMPLETELY. Like I said previously... I could care less. I dont care if its a choice or whether u were born that way... I dont care because homosexuality does not apply to my existence. Im not that way... therefore I havent taken the time to try to understand why certain people are that way. Its just like women who are fat.... It doesnt matter if its because they eat too much or because they have the obese gene... doesnt effect me either way. I understand clearly why the animal comment was made... and again, so what? Animals do a lot of things we dont do... they mate with their own offspring... so, should we just condone incest simply because " It is found in all forms of nature and animals." Absolutely NOT!
And finally... your post makes little sense to me also... but no apologies here.


"If I had to choose to love you or to breathe I would use my last breathe to say I love you."
Ok, just so Misterkelley understands exactly what you're saying here - Animals mate with their own offspring should we condone incest simply because - Absolutely not. Good we understand that statement right? ok good. Then please explain to me how the earth came to be populated if we all are decendants of Adam and Eve WITHOUT incest? Who did Cain and Abel mate with? Why it had to be their sisters didn't it? But wait a minute, God can't condone incest can he?? Do you notice that the bible goes into detail about who begat whom and yet strangely enough it never defines who mated with whom. Maybe this is a big reason that women aren't mentioned. How does the bloodline continue? Let's also take a look inside Noah's ark while we're on the subject shall we. Let's see, 2 of each animal. 1 Male, 1 female. Why did God say one male and one female? Was it so they can mate and have offspring? I bet it was. Who do those offspring mate with? Oh NO!!! not more incest? God must have foreseen that animals would have to mate with their own offspring in order to survive and repopulate. So if god not only condones this behavior, he makes it a necesesity, who are you to say "Absolutely not" I also love the way you blow off homosexuality "Because it doesn't apply to my existence" You really don't care if two gay people aren't allowed to marry or be allowed to be included in each other's wills or be allowed to collect insurance benefits.What is it about basic human rights that straight people just cringe at the thought of giving to homosexual people? Is marriage too sacred to be blown on gay people? What if the unmentionable happens and our children find out that it's not only natural but it's acceptable to be gay? If you truly do follow the words of god, then you would embrace ALL people. Do you think that at the moment Jesus was raised up on a cross that he said -"Well I just want it to be clear that I'm only doing this for the straight people. In about 2000 years, you're going to have to run up Harvey Firestein on a cross if all you gay and lesbian infedels want redemption."

BTW Does your quote only apply to straight people since you haven't really bothered to understand gay people?


MisterKelley - Now specializing in Trainwrecks and Jackassery

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goldenLOVE Posts : 44 Registered: 9/8/06
Re: Religulous type Question
Posted: Nov 20, 2008 1:03 PM Go to message in response to: MisterKelley

MisterKelley wrote:
Ok, just so Misterkelley understands exactly what you're saying here - Animals mate with their own offspring should we condone incest simply because - Absolutely not. Good we understand that statement right? ok good. Then please explain to me how the earth came to be populated if we all are decendants of Adam and Eve WITHOUT incest? Who did Cain and Abel mate with? Why it had to be their sisters didn't it? But wait a minute, God can't condone incest can he?? Do you notice that the bible goes into detail about who begat whom and yet strangely enough it never defines who mated with whom. Maybe this is a big reason that women aren't mentioned. How does the bloodline continue? Let's also take a look inside Noah's ark while we're on the subject shall we. Let's see, 2 of each animal. 1 Male, 1 female. Why did God say one male and one female? Was it so they can mate and have offspring? I bet it was. Who do those offspring mate with? Oh NO!!! not more incest? God must have foreseen that animals would have to mate with their own offspring in order to survive and repopulate. So if god not only condones this behavior, he makes it a necesesity, who are you to say "Absolutely not" I also love the way you blow off homosexuality "Because it doesn't apply to my existence" You really don't care if two gay people aren't allowed to marry or be allowed to be included in each other's wills or be allowed to collect insurance benefits.What is it about basic human rights that straight people just cringe at the thought of giving to homosexual people? Is marriage too sacred to be blown on gay people? What if the unmentionable happens and our children find out that it's not only natural but it's acceptable to be gay? If you truly do follow the words of god, then you would embrace ALL people. Do you think that at the moment Jesus was raised up on a cross that he said -"Well I just want it to be clear that I'm only doing this for the straight people. In about 2000 years, you're going to have to run up Harvey Firestein on a cross if all you gay and lesbian infedels want redemption."

BTW Does your quote only apply to straight people since you haven't really bothered to understand gay people?


Ok... for arguments sake... lets go back to Cain and Abel days. Cain killed Abel... so is murder ok because it occurred back then? No. Brothers and sisters mated... fine, I'll give u that one... so does that mean it is ok to sleep with ur siblings? I dont care how far back the tree is traced... if my FH is my long lost cousin twice removed, I want to know! Clearly, this relationship will be effected because of that. In the beginning of time... maybe incest was neccessary for the earth to be inhabited... but THAT DOES NOT APPLY these days. The world is overflowing with people so escuse me if I dont understand why a man would fondle and have incest with his little girl... sorry, Im not too keen on brothers and sisters procreating or having sex in general... my bad. Maybe I need help with getting in touch with my incestuaous side...
I am also so glad you mentioned Noahs ark and the "2 of each animal. 1 Male, 1 female. " Why didn't God just throw in some of those homosexual animals you all seem so interested in? I dont cringe at the thought of anyone having basic human rights... and I'll say it again for those who didnt understand the first few times... IT DOES NOT APPLY TO MY EXISTENCE. Will my world shatter if gays are allowed to marry? No. Will anything change in my life because of any gay movements or gay revolutions? No. I sincerely dont care... seriously. At the end of the day... these people are who they are, whether by choice or birth or circumstance. At the end of the day... I am who I am... regardless of other's opinions, beliefs, and objections. Its that simple. There arent any gray areas... its all black and white here.
And as for my quote... it doesnt apply to gay or straight PEOPLE...the PERSON it applies to is my FH (who happens to be heterosexual). Any further questions....


"If I had to choose to love you or to breathe I would use my last breathe to say I love you."

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