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NWR: Your feelings on smoking

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BirdLover Posts : 2,835 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 12:58 AM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

" Should it be made illegal? No way. It's way too late for that."

Actually, I think it SHOULD be made illegal.  Because there are no benefits to smoking . At all.  You can argue benefits to drinking, benefits to driving, but there are absolutely zero benefits to smoking, and what bothers me (since we're ranting about the government anyway, hee hee) is that the government does continue to legalize something that has no benefits and so many potential harms.


I'm with Cyndi in that the war on drugs, etc. is a crock (why on earth do drug possessors get more time in jail than rapists?), and I realize that if smoking was illegal they would probably overdo it too...but at least the ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of it as being harmful and not tolerated would appease me.

And please, any smokers, don't think I mean that to be harsh against you.  You are doing something perfectly legal, no harm in that.  But I would still love for them to gradually phase it out.


People also mentioned (I can't remember who, and I apologize) that they can't imagine, for exactly, going to a casino and not being allowed to have a cigar.  Fair enough.  But as someone from a now smoke-free city, I can't imagine going to a casino and having to breathe in someone else's cigar smoke.  So it kinda goes both ways...however, you have to choose one side, so why not chose the side that does not negatively affect others' health?

Let me put it this way: I am very sensitive to cigarette smoke.  It gives me headaches and nausea fairly quickly.  If I want to avoid cigarette smoke, I pretty much can't leave my house. So it's not like I can just avoid going to smokey places.  It's everywhere.  So if they restrict some areas from smoking, fine with me. 

Another thought: I always wonder if any smokers (those who have tried to quit, mostly) ever get angry that the government legalizes a substance that is bad for you AND severely addictive.  Because that would piss me off :P 

Lastly, I probably have not made this clear, but over the years I have been very careful at not being against SMOKERS.  I can curse the habit and the manufacturers all i want, but smokers are just people who smoke.  I am not against smokers...does that make sense?

I also wanted to point out that whenever I have disagreed with someone on this thread, I mean so respectfully.  So in case it doesn't come across that way, know that I mean it.

I have seen too much crap in my life as a result of smoking (ever watched someone die of emphasema?  not fun) that it's a really " hot topic" for me.

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Brookitacita Posts : 60 Registered: 12/4/06
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 4:05 AM Go to message in response to: BirdLover

Birdlover, morally speaking, I completely agree with you about illegalizing smoking. It truly doesn't serve a purpose, and is just an addicting habit now to those who try it. I would love it if cigarettes could successfully be outlawed, but I don't feel that possible -- practically speaking. Look at how successful the drug bans have been -- how many people do you know that have/ do smoke weed? And I'm not talking about the ones with the medical licenses. I know A LOT. And like many people pointed out, the enforcement would cost a fortune in taxes to constantly put these already addicted people in jail. It would be difficult to enforce period. Like I mentioned before, look at the effects prohibition had -- it was hardly successful. Why would banning something that's even more addicting be successful? And technology is better now, I'm sure we would all be amazed of the underground smoking world we would inadvertently create. So I am satisfied to simply have it banned from places that affect me. I think that even if it was outlawed, people would still smoke outside fairly often and still smoke in their homes. It might be slightly less prevalent -- but then it might become an even more intriguing sort of "taboo." Who knows. At this point, I feel that there is enough education about the effects of smoking out there that people are all making a conscious choice about their health. If they make a poor choice, then it's not the government's place to try to force them to be healthy. You can't protect everyone from their own stupidity -- as difficult as that can be to accept. But I do think it is the government's place to protect those people around them that did not make the unhealthy choice. And honestly, there is a reason that the no-smoking ban is spreading -- it's successful! People like it. The majority likes it. The basis of democracy.

As far as the arguments about cars go... First of all, the only laws we're talking about here are ones that affect indoor locations. Like Heidi said (kudos), we are not allowed to drive our cars indoors either. Outdoors, yes there is pollution. That is a huge problem with many factors. It would be nice if we could solve those problems too, but that is a completely unrelated issue to this. None of the arguments against the ban are really relevent to the subject we're discussing -- which is banning smoking inside public places. If smoking gets banned outdoors, then sure, come back and rant about cars some more.

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MrsMcCain Posts : 581 Registered: 10/24/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 9:40 AM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

Cyndi I think that the war on drugs is a completely different situation then smokers. People who drugs, such as meth and coke, not only are lazy but are out of their mind and do nothing for society. There is also a lot more crime and murders when people are on drugs so I believe that it is very fair that these people are locked up. It's not like the people rotting in jail are there for one offense... they have numerous violations. It takes a lot of court dates, evidence, and probably an extreme amount of drugs to land yourself a oneway ticket to prision. Even though that I think cigarettes will eventually kill you, many people that do drugs will die faster and it definately causes more brain damage. With that said I do not think that the war on drugs, such as meth and coke, should be compared to cigarette smoking.

I know I would not want to live in a world where the government did NOTHING about people who do drugs.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 10:32 AM Go to message in response to: MrsMcCain

Cyndi I think that the war on drugs is a completely different situation then smokers. People who drugs, such as meth and coke, not only are lazy but are out of their mind and do nothing for society. There is also a lot more crime and murders when people are on drugs so I believe that it is very fair that these people are locked up. It's not like the people rotting in jail are there for one offense... they have numerous violations.

I responded to a comparison already made.  HOwever, I find the attitude above uninformed, inaccurate and just plain sad.  By the way, do you know the sentencing laws in each jurisdiction in the US for drug offenses?  YOu are entitled to have that opinion, but rest assured I will continue each day working as hard as I can to fight the results of legislature enacted mirroring that opinion, and will never view my clients as worthless human beings.  

Bird....never ever interpreted your views as vitriolic...so no worries at all, and I'm betting smokers didn't/don't either.

 


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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 10:38 AM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

I know Kelley.  I should be done, the views I'm responding to will always/have always pissed me off.  I realize it's useless to discuss something like that with the "law and order" set, but it's sooooo hard/impossible NOT to when I find the attitude so unbelievably narrow minded and vile.  In person, I have a super tough time being polite to prosecutors, and that "throw them all in jail" ilk...

And after yesterday's visits (with some very young clients serving effectively life sentences) it will probably be impossible to stop.  So, you should have plenty of entertainment as long as this thread, or similar ones, exist.  :) 


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Heidibride30 Posts : 1,201 Registered: 4/16/08
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 10:51 AM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

Actually Cyndi, I agree with you as far as locking away drug offenders and throwing away the key.  I am hardly of the "law and order" set as you say.  As I have said (ad nauseum) I don't think smoking should be banned.  Just smoking indoors.  Do I claim that I know that someone's second hand smoke is going to give me cancer?  No.  But I don't see why I should have to take that chance because someone else wants to light up.  Yes, adults should be able to fill their lungs with whatever toxins they want.  But they shouldn't be able to do it in a public BUILDING.  Outside, in private buidings, in their car...I have no problem with any of that.  I think it's funny that you are calling us narrow-minded.  On this topic, you are clearly as narrow minded on your side of the argument as we are on ours.  Furthermore, I find it hilarious that you keep straying so wildly off-topic.  For a thread about smoking, we've heard about NASA, cars, the environment, drinking and now unfair punishments for drug offenders.  Dang.  

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bridesrocks Posts : 478 Registered: 9/25/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 10:52 AM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

Why make it Illegal??? Stop selling the stupid things!  I am a smoker and I have quit once before and planning on doing it again.  Weight issues is why I started back...no excuse I know but it was mine for the time being.  We are not allowed to smoke in restaurant bars any public places where I live.  Now in Ontario you are not allowed to smoke in your car if you have a child under the age of 16 in your vehicule.  Now this I like!  People should not smoke in their cars if kids are in there.  Now they are trying for people to not be allowed to smoke outside and eventually it will be you can't smoke in your own house.  Well then stop selling the damn things instead of having all these laws!  Fine the tabacco company for making it!  It will be alot easier!
Until I marry my Rockstar!

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 11:11 AM Go to message in response to: Heidibride30

MY POINT, is that only with smoking do we make this argument.  We ignore the other items, because they are socially popular.  I take issue with that and have TRIED to make that clear.  I can not make the smoking argument on its own because there are too many other things which, IMO, are WORSE for everyone.  

As far as drugs, I responded to someone yes.  I don't think it was you who called addicts lazy and worthless, nor was it you who asked me (and ms. d) if we would make meth and coke legal.  However, I responded to that person.  

So yes, I've discussed more than just smoking, and so have 90% of the other posts.  

IF the arguments were held to all things "bad for you" in the same way, then I would at least find the basis logical and fairly applied.  But right now, all I see is government jumping on an anti smoker (NOT anti cigarette) bandwagon which ticks me off.   


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MrsMcCain Posts : 581 Registered: 10/24/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 11:25 AM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

"As far as drugs, I responded to someone yes. I don't think it was you who called addicts lazy and worthless, nor was it you who asked me (and ms. d) if we would make meth and coke legal. However, I responded to that person." I dont know what you mean by "clients" are you a lawyer who defends people on drug charges? If that is the case, more power to you. I use to work in a lawfirm that defended those people too... and the reason I make statements like I did is because probably 3/4 of the clientle were exactly like that. They spend all of their money on drugs, they live on welfare (which by your other posts I thought this would bother you)and they don't even TRY to do anything with their lives. I think it's sad too, and I was not trying to give you an attitude in my other response, but the people that are locked up I'm sure violated the laws many times and deserved what they got. Drugs are terrible for people and they do horrible things, and my only argument was that I think it is silly to compare smokers to people that are locked up b/c of drugs. I can't obviously cite every jurisdiction for you as to why some of these people are locked up, I'm sure some of them were locked up unfairly, but I feel confident in saying that I'm sure these people earned their way to prison, and that the streets are probably safer without them on there.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 11:46 AM Go to message in response to: MrsMcCain

Yes, I work in a law firm which handles appellate defense/post conviction cases.  All my clients are in prison.  All are indigent, most are addicts, many have untreated mental health issues.  And almost all will likely never get out and yes, some for a FIRST offense, the sentencing laws where I live and work are some of the harshest in the US, and overall, the US is harsher than ANY other westernized nation.  

I believe the streets would be safer with access to mental health treatment for all, access to health care for all, real treatment options for people with addictions, a focus and system designed for rehabilitation RATHER than retribution.  I will likely be called out again for writing about more than smoking, but I really don't care.  So yes, even IF they are guilty I do not support throwing them away AND failing to treat the illness behind the actions. 

Once again, I spoke directly about meth/coke, etc because, someone asked me if I would be in favor of legalizing those substances.  I responded.  It's personal to me too, my oldest daughter is a recovering meth addict.  She is not now, and never was, lazy or worthless or any of the other things ranted about.  She made mistakes and poor choices which resulted in her becoming addicted.  She's been clean now for 3 years.  However, I shudder when I think about her running into people with the type of attitudes I've been reading.  I sincerely hope she is never subjected to them because she should be proud of what she has accomplished.  

I don't know what I've said that would cause anyone to think I have ANY prejudice against ANYONE who lived on welfare...do you even know how much that is and what the requirements are?? I don't know for sure, but I do know that people on it barely survive and I absolutely do not want to say anything that would cause people to think I judge them because they are impoverished.  I am the LAST person who would have any right to judge anyone living in poverty.

And, finally, I could make a similar argument about the prosecutors that I run up against now and before, who cheat the system over and over again to get their conviction (we have one here, she was just kicked off a death penalty case for her ethical violations, and that's just in the case where she got CAUGHT).  THAT makes me more sick because there is NO excuse....those people simply abuse the system just cause they can.  

 


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Heidibride30 Posts : 1,201 Registered: 4/16/08
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 12:01 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

 I can not make the smoking argument on its own because there are too many other things which, IMO, are WORSE for everyone.

I don't understand that argument.  We shouldn't ban smoking indoors because there are things that are worse.  Well, by that argument we shouldn't have stricter laws about car emissions, because factories are worse.  And we shouldn't make drunk driving illegal, because flying a plane drunk is worse.  It doesn't compute.  Just because there are things that are worse it doesn't mean that this isn't bad, and shouldn't be regulated.

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BirdLover Posts : 2,835 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 12:15 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

"But right now, all I see is government jumping on an anti smoker (NOT anti cigarette) bandwagon which ticks me off.  "

Well, this I understand.  And you're right, it doesn't make sense.  Again, smoking is legal, so if the government really wants to blame anyone for all the smoking that is out there, they should blame themselves.

If they stop allowing cigarettes to be sold, as someone pointed out, they wouldn't have to enforce all of these other rules.

Would smoking go away if it was illegal?  No.  However, I would like to point out that there are a lot of people who smoke pot, yet I have never had to breathe in second-hand pot smoke because people don't do it outside of office buildings in the middle of daytime (although if they did, I'm pretty sure I'd have to laugh, because it would be a pretty funny sight!)

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 12:21 PM Go to message in response to: Heidibride30

The whole point behind what irritates me is that society is soooo anti - smoker, and the attitude is ban, ban, ban.  BUT, the things which are even MORE harmful, will NOT be regulated and no attempt will be made by our government to do so, because that would be politically unpopular.  I'd like to hear someone come right out and say, I hate smokers and find them vile, tehrefore I am going to ban smoking in public simply because I can.  I LIKE drinking, driving, flying, etc, so I will NOT ban that because I don't want to...it's osmething I like to do therefore it is ok.  

If we really want to curb smoking, why don't we BAN the manufactureres, fine them, increase THEIR taxes.  It seems to me ALL we do is gripe about how rude smokers are, impose regulations on them for doing something which is perfectly legal to do, and treat them basically like pariahs.

So yes, I would focus on the things which are REALLY bad even though they are popular IF I were going to focus on anything at all.  

Having said that, I wouldn't go at something harmful by punishing those addicted to it, or by enacting further useless bans/intrusions.

Someone mentioned smoking isn't banned in people's homes.  That isn't really true...it is in many places.  Inside AND even on t heir own balconies, backyards.  Condo communities come to mind  

So, I don't follow/buy the other argument.  Banning smoking is easy so let's all jump on the wagon, drink the kool aid, and ban away while we ignore or encourage the things which are worse for everyone.  AFter all, it's not much of an intrusion and smokers are nasty anyway.

So...after you ban it, then what? 

Do you honestly believe that if they don't act regarding the worse things, the tough (because popular) things, that everyone will be healthy, there will be no more lung cancer, and we can all sing kum bay ah together?  I absolutely do not.

Plus, I don't see our government trying to make stricter regulations on car emissions.  I DO see them fighting tooth and nail to make sure we are totally reliant on oil, though.  It really makes me sick.

I believe, with us further regulated, smokers maybe fined/jailed along with other "bad" addicts, and no one overall will actually BE any healthier because the big pollutants are STILL out there, still going strong, still government sanctioned and subsidized.   But hey, at least we don't have to see the nasty smokers. yay.


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bridesrocks Posts : 478 Registered: 9/25/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 31, 2008 1:57 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

 

 



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BirdLover Posts : 2,835 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Aug 1, 2008 1:00 AM Go to message in response to: bridesrocks

Some businesses in my area actually had a huge increase in business after the smoking ban took effect...so...banning smoking is good for the econmony...:D

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