NWR: Your feelings on smoking

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 10:15 AM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

cyndi, I'm with you on this one.  I'm not particularly libertarian by nature, but there is something about how government treats smoking/smokers that leaves me uneasy.

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"I'm asking you to believe.  Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington. . .I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 10:42 AM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Well its like with anything in America. No one wants to take responsibilty for their actions. No one holds a gun to anyone's head and says "SMOKE!!". No one holds a gun to anyone's head and says "PIG OUT AND DIE FROM OBESITY!" Or says "buy a house that you know you can't afford and go into foreclosure" But the people still want the government to swoop in and rescue them from their own mistakes.

And if they made smoking illegal, who is going to enforce this? Or drinking?  They would need to hire more cops and then what happens? Higher taxes to pay their darn salaries. You think cops have time to bust people for smoking cigarettes? Theyre too busy running red lights and making illegal turns. Not to mention all the "real" crime out there.

I agree with Cyndi that drinking and driving should be the #1 concern when it comes to any substance. When I smoke around someone, there is a SLIGHT chance it is hurting anyone else (i geuss unless they have asthma) If I got behind the wheel after drinking, I am putting probably hundreds of people at an immediate danger. Immediate as in, they could die right there and then if I crash into them.

 

 


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MrsMcCain Posts : 580 Registered: 10/24/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 12:32 PM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

Hey everyone, I haven't visited my thread for awhile so I've been reading to catch up and thought I would throw my opinions out there now! I have a real problem with smokers thinking that their cigarettes do not affect other people... and I also think that it is very rude for smokers to expect people to breath in their toxins and accept it. It is never about one smoker either. It seems like whenever one smoker lights one up all of a sudden every other smoker in the room does too, and that makes it a lot more hazardous then just one or two smokers. I grew up with my dad smoking around me my whole life in that I lived with my parents, and he only smoked in the basement. I was always hard at breathing, would develop sore throats, coughs, and my lungs felt like they weighed ten pounds each. It was horrible. It is the same thing when I go to a bar and five people around you light one up. Not to mention how my hair and clothes smell after leaving the place. I think that it is only fair to everyone that they choose whether or not to be around those toxins. I don't think that the government should "ban" smoking, or alcohol, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere with both substances. They have laws that are hard on drunk drivers- good, you should not drink and drive. If you are not drinking and driving then your drinking isn't really affecting anyone else around you. Second hand smoke does affect people and that is why it is an issue. We did get the ban passed and I love it. I have been able to go out, have a good time and not stink and have my lungs clogged with smoke. I do not see this as taking away anyone's "rights" and having the government interfere with people's lives. People can still smoke if they want to, just not in public places. I think someday a generation will look back and think that it was crazy that they EVER allowed people to do that in the first place.

I think Cyndi was also writing about how there are more important issues to worry about, such as pollution. I think that bigger issues like that happen with time, so maybe banning smoking in public areas is the first step to regulating bigger issues such as pollution.

I don't see anything bad coming out of this ban. People will be healthier and the smokers and still smoke. I think it's a win-win for everyone.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 12:54 PM Go to message in response to: MrsMcCain

If you are not drinking and driving then your drinking isn't really affecting anyone else around you.

That really goes against my logic and argument principally because it DOES affect those around, and in a huge way, but is ok because it is socially popular and, in contrast, smoking (right now) is NOT...but basically, I have a problem with government (people) jumping on a particular bandwagon argument and acting inconsistently.  I also do not wish the government to take any further control of private lives of people for "safety"...personally, I do not believe that my interests are best served by a "big brother" type government.  I see the smoking bandwagon as the current 'popular issue'.

As an aside, we live in an area where smoking is not allowed in/or within 20 feet of, public buildings, or in restaurants or bars, etc.  

However, I do not believe or buy that banning smoking will make people healthier, nor do I buy into the argument that government should be acting as paternally as they seem to do as it relates to smoking (but nothing else).  By the by, as far as alcohol goes it causes more death/crime every hour than smoking does or will.  

That said, I am not purporting that the government should ban any of these things.  I find the current bans abysmal failures anyway, and believe bans on smoking or drinking would be as well...and probably should be.  THIS is what happens when government tries to legislate morals.  Anyway, I personally do drink occasionally and don't smoke...my opinions as to the government taking any further control remain.  And, my opinions as to the bandwagon mentality also remain.  It scares me, frankly, because I do NOT trust that the next bandwagon item will be something innocuous, not this government, not these people, and probably not ever again.  

And maybe this is cynical or naive, however, I don't think the government will act to protect societies interests in restrictions which could provide alternative energy sources, protect or improve air/water quality at all.  It goes against large, corporate interests and the interests of those wtihin their social/economic circles and who put them in office through their political contributions, etc.  IMO.  And mainly, what annoys me, is that somehow smokers have been relegated to this slug like life form by much of society when those who participate in behaviors causing FAR more damage to others...remain untouched in any way.  It bugs me. I see it as, again, a slippery slope but one that society has repeated over and over, with results that I find then and now frightening and, yes, hypocritical IF the justification is "the good of the people".  (to me, it's much like what our government did in or to, iraq (ie: for the 'good' of the people saddam had to be overthrown, apparently by us...the morals police for home AND the world) AND the soldiers we sent there)  I am not starting up or trying to start up that topic, but the same argument for me opposing it applies. 


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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 1:44 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

I think that bigger issues like that happen with time, so maybe banning smoking in public areas is the first step to regulating bigger issues such as pollution.

I don't think that happens at all.  I think legislatures are afraid to tackle the big problems -- they are too hard and legislators would rather fight with eachother than actually solve big problems.  Not to mention that solving the big problems would mean asking everyone to change their behaviors, and they are too scared to do something like that.  So they focus on smoking --  no one likes smokers, and smoking is bad for you, so it's easy to pass law after law targeting smokers. 

And mainly, what annoys me, is that somehow smokers have been relegated to this slug like life form by much of society when those who participate in behaviors causing FAR more damage to others...remain untouched in any way. 

This bugs me too.


__________________________________________
"I'm asking you to believe.  Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington. . .I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

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BirdLover Posts : 2,834 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 1:50 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

A lot of people are comparing smoking to drinking and driving, stating that drinking and driving is a bigger problem (I agree, not enough is done about drinking and driving).  However, both things do hurt people.  Driving drunk hurts people, therefore it is illegal.  Smoking around others hurts people, therefore a lot of places are basically making that illegal.  There is no HARM in making smoking in public places illegal, so I'm all for it.

"When I smoke around someone, there is a SLIGHT chance it is hurting anyone else "

To be fair, you don't know that.  Every person, every body possesses a certain ability to fight cancer.  You don't know that you aren't smoking around people who have a low ability to fight it, or as you said, those with asthma, those with allergies, etc. 

Not trying to pick on you, just making a point.  It's like, if I wear strong perfume, I'm likely not hurting anyone.  But I COULD be giving someone a migraine.  So it's not worth it.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 2:06 PM Go to message in response to: BirdLover

Bird, that's where my thoughts are being interpreted incorrectly.  Sure, drinking and driving is dangerous to others, however, drinking even without driving is as well.  But it is socially acceptable and smoking is not.  Drinking (overall, NOT just driving) kills more people, by far, than smoking does however, anti smoking is the currently popular bandwagon item...so we are banning it all over the place.

And frankly, if government continues on its path, then I DO fear for where it ends.  The law is suppose to be that no one has any affirmative duty to protect another without more (relationship which provides that duty) however, where smokers are concerned the current trend seems to isolate and segregate them as "bad" and legislate to protect the rest of society from that "bad" group of people.  While ignoring any other so called "bad" group of people or bad behavior.  I have a problem with that.  And the logical fallacy which supports the current bandwagon trend.  

I get your position, but mine which used drinking as an example of one of a number of things which are dangerous to others is not limited to drinking and driving.  

I think Ms. D expressed it best, above.  Smoking is unpopular, so good to ban it. (which im sure is a huge paraphrase which butchers her, as usual, terriffic linguistic expression...)

Drinking is popular, so we don't.  I am bugged by that hypocrisy and find it far too big brotherish to support. 

I respect your right to your opinion, and the only point of this post is clarifying mine cause it's not limited to drinking combined with driving.   


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MrsMcCain Posts : 580 Registered: 10/24/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 2:14 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

Hey cyndi I see what you are saying but I am looking at it from a different perspective... smoking kills other people who do not smoke and effects their health while drinking only effects your health (and others if you are driving, but drinking and driving is illegal so I don't think that is your agrument). If I choose to drink half a bottle of vodka today no one else will be effected except me. If I choose to smoke a pack of cigarettes today around 5+ people they are ALL effected in some sort of way. So that is why drinking is not banned, and not because it's "popular" and smoking is (because it directly affects other people around you). I see nothing wrong with this ban, and people can still smoke in their homes or outdoors. This is really not a big deal. I don't think that the government is banning smoking for health reasons of an individual but for the innocent people that have to put up with it too when they go out.

Also, the only thing that I am pissed about with this law is that they are exempting casinos, that makes no sense to me. I went to one the other weekend and had to sit by three smokers at a blackjack table, it sucked.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 2:21 PM Go to message in response to: MrsMcCain

drinking only effects your health (and others if you are driving, but drinking and driving is illegal so I don't think that is your agrument). If I choose to drink half a bottle of vodka today no one else will be effected except me.

No...it affects others in myriad ways...incrased health care costs, increased costs for incarceration, creation of victims of violent crime, damage to unborn infants, affect on rights of others--assuming this rights of others exists--for enjoyment of life (through having to tolerate obnoxious drunk person tripping on them, throwing up on them, being loud and vulgar around them while trying to enjoy a quiet/peaceful dinner out) and on and on and on and on...that is why I keep trying to explain that drinking and driving is only ONE of the dangers.  However, because drinking is socially popular...it is not targeted.  Smoking is NOT socially popular so it is.  

If that logic carries over, then why doesn't government try to ban other things which are MORE dangerous for the good of others???because the other things are popular and they are too chicken shit to tackle anything unpopular.

I also odn't believe we have a 'right' to go to a casino as a non smoker any more than as a smoker.  However, we can ALL choose not to go if we don't like the environment.  I choose not to go.  

I think it's for health reasons of others too and don't believe that "innocent" people need the government's protection against the "evil smoker"  Again, this is where I take issue and see flaws in the theory. To me, it will always be hypocritical and flawed.


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Heidibride30 Posts : 1,201 Registered: 4/16/08
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 3:54 PM Go to message in response to: cyndi33

drinking only effects your health (and others if you are driving, but drinking and driving is illegal so I don't think that is your agrument). If I choose to drink half a bottle of vodka today no one else will be effected except me.

"No...it affects others in myriad ways...incrased health care costs, increased costs for incarceration, creation of victims of violent crime, damage to unborn infants, affect on rights of others--assuming this rights of others exists--for enjoyment of life (through having to tolerate obnoxious drunk person tripping on them, throwing up on them, being loud and vulgar around them while trying to enjoy a quiet/peaceful dinner out) and on and on and on and on..."

Cyndi, she didn't say that someone else drinking wouldn't affect you at all, she said that it wouldn't affect your health.  For the record, smoking also increases health care costs and can certainly create danger for unborn infants.  Regardless, no one is saying that smoking is the only bad thing out there.  And as far as drinking goes, most places do have laws against public intoxication.  Not just driving, but being drunk in public.  You'd get in just as much trouble if you pounded a shot in court as if you lit up a cigarette.  Again, in most cases the bans against smoking are just about smoking in public buildings.  I don't see this as big brother.  When you are indoors, the smoke doesn't disperse the way it does outside, and can do far more harm to a bystander than someone smoking outside.  I completely agree that people should be allowed to smoke in their homes, cars, or outside.  But when it comes to public buildings, I fully support the ban.  Big Brother would be forcing smokers to register with the government or something.  Outlawing something potentially harmful to others (and I'm NOT saying it's the only harmful thing out there or that other issues don't need to be tackled) is not big brother.   

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 4:41 PM Go to message in response to: Heidibride30

I said it before in this thread, I'll say it again.  I think the statistics for second-hand smoke are trumped up and overblown. Seriously, once you whittle down the actual death rate that second-hand smoke is responsible for -- and I did it once -- the idea that that's a target of public health reform is ridiculous.

And, yeah,  I do think my right to smoke trumps your right to "clean" air. . .I think if you don't like it, you should move.  Don't want to go to a smokey bar?  Don't go.  Don't like smokey casinos?  Don't go to the casino.

And it bugs me when people bring up someone's death that is supposedly because of second-hand smoke.  If a person has asthma and encounters second hand smoke, the family will blame the smoke.  But not the asthma.

That makes as much sense to me as blaming the guy who cooked the burger for the woman who has a weak heart who eats it and then keels over from a heart attack.  Is it my responsibility to know the weaknesses of those who I encounter so that I can tiptoe around their infirmiries?  Seriously? 

I personally will accept the deletion of .000000000002 minutes off my life for the knowledge that grown adults are allowed to be grown adults.  I personally would not want someone to take the jack daniels out of my hand at the bar - which maybe they should, what if I'm a violent drunk? -  so I'm not going to take their cigarette away either.

And here's the other problem: Whatever happened to the free market?  There's a movie theater near me that allows smoking -- some of my friends don't go because it's too smoky.  But the theater makes up that revenue by being a place that smokers can go to.  Why not let the business owner decide what kind of patronage it wants to market itself to?  I can't imagine a casino where you weren't allowed to smoke a cigar while playing poker.  Because the fun in playing poker is smoking a cigar.  I miss the time when there were places where adults could be adults, and peoplelet them. 


__________________________________________
"I'm asking you to believe.  Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington. . .I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

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Heidibride30 Posts : 1,201 Registered: 4/16/08
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 4:53 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Seriously, once you whittle down the actual death rate that second-hand smoke is responsible for -- and I did it once -- the idea that that's a target of public health reform is ridiculous.

As far as I'm concerned, 1 death from second hand smoke is too many.  (And before anyone gets on their soapbox, I also think that 1 death due to someone else drinking or doing drugs or anything else is too many too but I'm trying to stay on topic).  Also, your argument about asthma doesn't hold water either.  If the asthma attack is triggered by the second hand smoke, then BOTH are contributing factors to the death, not just the asthma.

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MrsMcCain Posts : 580 Registered: 10/24/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 4:58 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

And, yeah,  I do think my right to smoke trumps your right to "clean" air. . .I think if you don't like it, you should move.  Don't want to go to a smokey bar?  Don't go.  Don't like smokey casinos?  Don't go to the casino.

This mindset is just selfish, and unfortunately that is the mindset of about 90% of smokers, which is why the law probably needed to interfere. I think it is a huge big deal for people to smoke around me. I don't like it, I can't breath right, my eyes get all puffy, etc.

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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 5:01 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

I miss the time when there were places where adults could be adults, and peoplelet them.

So do I.  But trying to have this conversation, I'm sorry, is like trying to converse rationally with my inlaws about the upcoming election.  The rhetoric is (imo) totally accepted as fact and everyone has already drunk the kool aid...over and over.

Last thing, for whomever said this ban thing isn't overblown and is only public buildings...nope.  that's not the trend actually, there are cities which are smoke free, there are many buildings where smokers are not even allowed to smoke outside, anywhere.  It is a slippery slope, I stand by that.  And, I don't believe I have a right to trump someone else's right to be, or not to be, smoke free, drink free, drug free, noise free...whatever else is in vogue at the time.

And, Ms. D, thank you for bringing up the trumped up second hand smoke thing.  I've never bought that.  I am not saying smoking is good for you...I'm saying, HOW do you eliminate all other causes and definitively pinpoint the effects of the second hand smoke as a cause.  I simply don't buy that it's reliable or even possible to do so.  (this is why toxic tort cases are virtually impossible to win)    ANYWHO...on to more research for my cases cause I have to travel all tomorrow and thursday so better get back to work.   


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cyndi33 Posts : 2,585 Registered: 1/3/07
Re: NWR: Your feelings on smoking
Posted: Jul 29, 2008 5:05 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

s it my responsibility to know the weaknesses of those who I encounter so that I can tiptoe around their infirmiries?  Seriously?

Actually, no it's not legally speaking.  UNLESS or UNTIL you take that on and create a dutyfor yourself, OR, target this person as a victim of some sort of physical attack, OR, are in a role where you alreadyhave a legal duty (such as master/servant, parent/child, employer/employee...etc)

Interestingly, smoking appears to be the ONLY area where the current bandwagon is that we must protect everyone from the "smokers" ...  eeeehhhhh. 


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