NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!

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CaribbeanBride08 Posts : 1,474 Registered: 6/13/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 10:07 AM Go to message in response to: Retired

I'm in the same boat as Noctunius.  When people have asked me why I've never had kids or why me and my husband aren't going to have kids, I tell them I don't want to give up what I have now.  I like my life as it is now and don't feel that we need to have kids to make our family whole.  Brian and I just really aren't "kids" people.  I can't handle being around kids for very long, no matter who's kids they are.  Call me crazy if you want but I'm just being honest. 

Besides, I have four furry children who love me unconditionally and never back talk or get sassy with me (like I did to my mom)!!! 


Slideshow of our wedding photos: 

http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/tobiandbrian/Wedding%20Photos/?action=view¤t=cb216606.pbr

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CaribbeanBride08 Posts : 1,474 Registered: 6/13/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM Go to message in response to: Beachwed

Beachwed, your response reminds me of the Garth Brooks song, The Dance.  Beautiful song and the video puts it into perspective. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IxiJJBvZnRI

 

Slideshow of our wedding photos: 

http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/tobiandbrian/Wedding%20Photos/?action=view¤t=cb216606.pbr

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ginmal Posts : 396 Registered: 1/11/08
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 12:15 PM Go to message in response to: Mushaboo

 ""Have a baby if you want.  Just make sure you can support it, nourish it, and be the best parents you can be!!!  I get sick of seeing thousands of healthcare claims paid for by the govenment for 16 year old children having babies because "it will be fun."""

See. I am SO SICK of those generlizations. There are PLENTY of 30, 40 and 50 something parents who not only use but also ABUSE the system for their kids healthcare, food stamps and WIC on a daily basis.

I for one, got pregnant at 17, (I was on BC) and had my daughter at 18. When I learned I was pregnant I tried to get Medicaid, they denied me because I still lived with my parents and my father made too much $. So at 17, I moved out into my own place....and was on medicaid for approx. 4 months....I couldn't take it, the doctors were horrid, the helth dept was disgusting and nasty...so I lived in a small income based apt, and paid for my own medcaide....and food...and have supported my child since the day I found out I was pregnant ALONE! Which is more than I can say about  MANY 30 something single mothers out there. My daughter is now 7 years old, thriving, smart and sweet and about to start 2nd grade in an advanced multi aged class.

So please...don't assume all young parents are shitty ones. I for one, know I had my daughter way young, but I was also raised to be RESPONSIBLE for my actions.....and I am ....and loving every minute of it.

I personally would not like to have another child...only because my daughter is 7, and I don't want kids that far apart, and I will be so young when my daughter graduates HS, (only 36) so I would like me time then as well. However, if I were to get pregnant (I am on BC...but as I well know it's not 100%) I would raise that baby the same way I did the first.

DH and I are not religious, and DH has been living and helping me to raise my daughter since she was 3 months old. And I can tell you this...I would NEVER EVER want to change a thing.

See to me as well, I never want to be an "older" parent...I don't want to have a baby at 35 and be pushing 50 at their HS graduation. As a mother I know how strenious and energy sucking being a mother can be, when I am young...let alone pushing 40.

Just my 2 cents.


**Formerly Gin & Gin13...forgot my password!! LOL**

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Beachwed Posts : 782 Registered: 9/19/06
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 12:21 PM Go to message in response to: CaribbeanBride08

Caribbean, that's a beautiful song and great video, thanks for posting! I've always liked that song but had never seen the video.

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bellabride816 Posts : 8 Registered: 9/18/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 12:22 PM Go to message in response to: CaribbeanBride08

I really want to have a baby and FH is so-so on the subject.  Whenever he asks me to explain why I want kids, I have a hard time coming up with a reason that doesn't sound selfish to me...

Every reason I can think of comes back to me, and what it would bring me to have kids.  Maybe I'm being overly critical of myself, but I'd be interested to hear other people's reasons for having kids that they don't think sound selfish, so I know how to explain it to my FH

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Retired Posts : 808 Registered: 4/17/06
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 12:38 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

Just gotta throw my two cents in now.

Don't knock older parents. My parents are older. My mom was 60 years old at my graduation, and was more awake and energetic than the other parents around her in their 30s and 40s. My dad was 54, and was still a full-time professional firefighter saving people's lives. My mom has done more traveling in her age now than she ever did when she was younger, and we have photos of her climbing a 600-foot waterfall. My dad still runs five miles every morning.

Being older doesn't mean anything in terms of raising children or having the energy to do so. Age only matters when you tell yourself it does.


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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 12:53 PM Go to message in response to: serendipity3033

Sorry for those who will absolutely disagree with me, but having kids is absolutely 100% completely, and utterly, selfish.

 

And no , saying that is not rude.  It’s an opinion.

 

Why do I think it’s selfish?

 

Look around you.  Not just at your neighbors and community, but the globe. Darfour. . .earthquakes in China. . .cyclone in Myanmar.  Look at what’s going on in Zimbabwe, in Kenya, in dozens of places that we don’t bother to think about because we are devoting our energies to little Kimmie needing to make the soccer team. If you don’t know, take a second and peruse www.redcross.org, or www.planusa.org.

 

The world’s population is getting bigger.  Countries like India and China are developing at  a pretty fast rate.  As the global population gets bigger, we face a big problem – where do they all go?  Well, they go to unstable places, near the fault lines of earthquakes, near coastal areas subject to tsunamis, wetlands subject to hurricanes, deserts subject to droughts,  and, as a result, we get a new natural disaster that affects more and more people every few months or so.  First it's a few hundred in one country, then a few thousand in another, then a couple million somewhere else.  And it's not stopping.

 

So what can we do to help this problem?  Well, the answer certainly is NOT have more children. 

 

Producing another mouth to feed means taking resources that are in the globe and spreading them even more scarcely.  Even if you are making the food you eat, from your own vegetable garden, the food you are feeding yourself is not going to someone else.  How is that not selfish?

 

None of this is to say don’t have kids.  Have kids!  I will myself, eventually.  I will have a child, hopefully that will have my own genetic make-up because I selfishly want to prolong my own genes and have a kid in my own image. 

 

But I don’t fool myself into thinking that that’s not a selfish attitude.  It absolutely is.

 

Just my opinion.

__________________________________________
"I'm asking you to believe.  Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington. . .I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

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bellabride816 Posts : 8 Registered: 9/18/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 1:09 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Thank you MsDenun--I was starting to feel like something was wrong with me for thinking having kids is selfish.  My struggle is that I still really want them, even though I feel it is selfish.

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ArtBride Posts : 4,838 Registered: 5/9/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 2:35 PM Go to message in response to: bellabride816

Serendipity, I'm saying this because I'm interested in discussing it - not to 'attack' you - but I have absolutely ZERO patience with people who have attitudes like yours. You think the world is such a terrible place? DO SOMETHING about it - don't sit here complaining.

I have lots of friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances who sit around saying, 'I hate my insert whatever it is that they hate. Poor me,' as if they are completely HELPLESS to change their own lives. It drives me crazy. They'll say, 'ArtBride, you're so lucky you have a job that you love' (or whatever). WELL, IT DIDN'T JUST MAGICALLY FALL INTO MY LAP! I worked hard and EARNED it.

Maybe one person can't drastically change the way humanity behaves, but you can surely create a decent life for yourself, and THAT is what makes life worthwhile. Honestly, as obsessively as I follow the news, it rarely impacts my day-to-day life. Yes, it sucks that bad things happen, and sometimes things that don't directly affect me upset me to hear about...but what's the point in staying angry, living in fear, or NOT enjoying my life? Whether or not you believe in God or an afterlife, life is friggin' SHORT. Personally, I don't see a point in letting stuff get to me - because if I have to live a short, meaningless existence, I may as well make it a short, HAPPY meaningless existence.

I think you're right that religious people generally have a better outlook on death then non-religious people do. It only makes sense. Personally, I'm not afraid of death at all. There's no POINT in being afraid of it, seeing as it's going to happen to me whether I fear it or not. I don't even fear dying unexpectedly, because honestly, if I die tomorrow, I'm not going to be around to be upset about all the things I didn't get to do. The only way it would upset me is if I died and then had to hang around and THINK ABOUT all the things I didn't get to do. I'm not sure what happens after death - but I definitely believe that you're either dead and that's it (so you're not sitting around thinking about being dead), or you go to a better place (in which case, you don't CARE that you're dead). Either way, once I'm dead I'm not going to be worrying about it...and there's no point in worrying about it now because I'm not dying.

To answer your question, I am religious to a certain extent. I go to church pretty regularly, but I don't always agree with the views of my official religion. I do believe in God (in some form) and I believe that church and prayer are beneficial...if for no other reason than the fact that it makes you feel better. Personally, Dh and I go to church because it makes us feel peaceful. Even when I find myself sitting in my pew thinking, 'I think these church-people have it ALL wrong. What on earth am I DOING here?' I like going because it gives me time to reflect and raises issues that are worth thinking about. Sometimes I'll come out of church thinking, 'Hmm, well, I don't agree with a single thing that priest said, but now I know my opinion on X issue that I had never thought about.' So I guess I am more spiritual than religious in the sense of following a specific belief system...but I do think a lot about my beliefs and consider myself to be a spirtual person.

Onto the kid question...I think it's pretty ignorant of ANYONE on either side of the debate to say, 'You are selfish for doing what you believe is right.' When it comes down to it, is it even possible to do ANYTHING without being selfish AT ALL? (Anyone thinking of that Friends episode where Phoebe tries to find a good deed that's totally unselfish?) I could go home today and donate a bunch of money to charity - but do I really receive no benefit from it? Of course I do - it makes me feel good to help X charity. When it comes down to it, the choice of whether or not to have kids is an ENTIRELY selfish one whichever way you decide - because it COMPLETELY comes down to 'I want kids' or 'I don't want kids,' and both statements are about what YOU want, which makes both selfish. (By the way, I didn't see anyone say on the other thread that not wanting kids is selfish...as far as I could see, everybody said that it is a very personal decision. People may have implied that they get more satisfaction from having kids than they did from NOT having kids...but heck - I could sit here and say that I get more satisfaction from NOT having kids then I would from having them.)


DaisypathWedding Ticker

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ginmal Posts : 396 Registered: 1/11/08
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 2:41 PM Go to message in response to: Retired

I never "knocked" anyone nocturnous...I said being an older parent isn't something I am interested in. I PERSONALLY feel that I have better energy levels and also a younger look on life which helps me to be the parent I want to be. Thats great your parents were 60 when you graduated and it all worked out for YOUR FAMILY.

I personally would NEVER want to be 60 when my child graduated HS....and then say my daughter didnt marry until 28.....I PERSONALLY wouldn't want to be 70 years old at her wedding.

And sorry but there are more and more generalizations about YOUNG parents...which is where my thread came into paly. Not to "kncok" anyone.

But yousay "Being older does not mean anything in terms of raising childred or having the energy to do so. Age only matters wehen you tell yourself it does."

Well, I disagree there. My Ma is about to turn 50 and is keeping my daughter this summer for school break, and this week my neices day care is closed. So my Ma has a 7 year old and 2 year old and they are wiping her out. And I have to say with me being 26 some days my child wipes me out...and I could never image being 36 or 46 and doing all I do with her. It's a fact of life...people age, and with age comes not being as energetic and able to do things you could at 20 or 30 or even 40.

But again that is what I feel is for ME and MY family. To each their own and what works for one family may not for another....but I LOVE being a young mother and I wouldn't want it any other way at all.


**Formerly Gin & Gin13...forgot my password!! LOL**

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Mushaboo Posts : 2,165 Registered: 3/22/08
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 2:47 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

Gin- it wasn't personal towards you.  My sis-n-law had a kid at 16.  My niece is just fine.  Wonderful kid.  SIL had great parents though to support her and help her finish HS.  People of any age can be crappy parents (which is why I stressed FH's mom.  That woman doesn't have a mom bone in her body).  However, my area is overrun with broken homes and many underage immigrants being taken advantage of by their husbands or boyfriends or whoever.  They are sent out into the strawberry farms to work at 12 and knocked up by 14. 

 It's a damn shame that regardless of legal or illegal, we're ignoring that they are having lots and lots and lots of babies. 

Even at my salary status now, I wouldn't want to have a kid.  I'm sure some of my reasons are selfish not to have kids, but to each his own.

I'm sorry you felt the comment was personal.  I forget people don't know everything that goes on in my city.  lol

Side note: I'm crabby today.  Starting the day with a break-in just isn't my thing.  lol  The funny thing is while I don't want to give birth to a child, I would consider adopting a child that has no one.  I feel bad for those kids. 

 


http://www.mywedding.com/robertandginger


Message was edited by: mushaboo

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 4:14 PM Go to message in response to: Mushaboo

In the interest of keeping this philosophical. . .

There's the idea that you do what's right.  And then there's a separate question of doing what's right for you.  One is a moral absolute, the other is relative.

Art's right when she says that there pretty much is nothing you can do that's not selfish either way.  However, I still maintain -- keeping it philosophical here -- that not having kids is a fundamentally more unselfish thing to do than having them, at least in this world.  

But ultimately, to be truly unselfish in life, you pretty much have to be one of those people who gives up material things and lives in India helping poor people for the rest of your life.  And I don't think anyone of us is going to do that.

Some of the posts have talked about optimism vs. pessimism, half full v. half empty, complaining v. doing.  I think what's really the issue here is fear.

Having kids is scary.  Am I ready?  Don't I owe it to my children to not have kids unless I knew I was going to be a good mother?  What about terrorism, poverty, the economy? 

I don't blame anyone for being scared of it.  I think you either take the leap or you don't.   There's a passage in Obama's book "Audacity of Hope" that talks about how he struggles with the idea of being a good father.  Think about it:  he's been campaigning for the past year and a half -- how could he have been a great dad while doing that?  But does that mean that he shouldn't run for president? 

Same thing with Martin Luther King Jr, who pretty much never saw his kids.  Does that mean he shouldn't have had any?

Just food for thought.

Personal story:  I have a late brother who passed when I was 8 years old (he was 18).  I watched my mom at that time go through a really heavy depression for about 2 years where she barely got off the couch, and during that time wasn't a great parent.  I know that if you have a child that dies, you are 70% more likely to get divorced (and that's on top of the already-high 50% stat.)   This is the kind of stuff I think about when I'm contemplating kids -- I know the worst that can happen. 

Still don't think that fear should control my life, though. And if you want kids, it shouldn't control yours, either. 

Okay, I'm done rambling now.


__________________________________________
"I'm asking you to believe.  Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington. . .I'm asking you to believe in yours." - Barack Obama

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Ariana1228 Posts : 281 Registered: 3/2/08
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 4:30 PM Go to message in response to: Mushaboo

I think that the problem with teens having kids was examples like the incident that took place in Mass.  I don't know if anyone else heard of it, but there were girls in High School (half of them around the age of 15) who decided to make a pact to get pregnant because they thought it would be fun to have showers and bring up kids together ... Most of them got pregnant by their boyfriends, but there is one case where the girl got pregnant by a 24 year old homeless guy.

I personally think that this is a problem. 

To go along with the "system" that's in place, my mom used to work for the Dept. of Human Services ... as we all know people abuse the system.  There are people who have more and more kids just to get a check every month ... this isn't the case for everyone, but for some it is.  There are people that have 13 children to keep getting food stamps and checks for their kids and then they take the food stamps the state provides them and they sell them - for what you ask?? for money for shoes for whatever they can to spend money on themselves!!  Then on top of that how about putting your child's life in danger and having them go out and sell drugs for them?! This is the problem with the system and with some people who are "selfish" to have kids - so it benefits themselves.

My FH and I are going to have kids when we decide to because we want to, for whatever reasons, that's what we want to do. I do not think that we are selfish to have kids, we are religious, we go to church every Sunday.  My FH works with kids in his current job and we donate to families in need or countries in need bc of natural disasters ...


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newsjunkie Posts : 3,417 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 5:56 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

Gin, I know you aren't knocking anyone, I just wanted to point out that some of us don't have the choice to be young parents so it's kind of like you can be an older parent or not be a parent at all.  I am 32 now but probably won't have kid #1 for at LEAST 4 years- probably more like 5.  I will be in my mid-50's when kid #1 (of, hopefully, 2) graduates from high school.  It isn't ideal but I certainly wasn't ready for kids (or even a long-term relationship!) in my 20's or now so this is how it will be for me and I am OK with it.  The biggest problem with this scenario is that my parents will be way older and probably won't be able to be as active with my kids as they would like.  But, I can't turn back time or anything so I will play the hand I was dealt and enjoy it as much as possible.

And while you will enjoy your life after your daughter is out of the house (which is GREAT), I enjoyed my life BEFORE my kids.  It really works out to be about the same in a way, you know?  So while we can argue all day long about the merits of young parents vs. older parents, most of us don't have a choice- if you get pregnant younger you will be a younger parent, if you don't meet "The One" until later in life then you will be an older parent.  Anyone who actually gets to choose being an older or younger parent is pretty darn lucky!  :)

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serendipity3033 Posts : 363 Registered: 5/11/06
Re: NWR- Kids, life, existence... lets get philosophical!
Posted: Jul 1, 2008 7:32 PM Go to message in response to: newsjunkie

Well, I thank you all for your comments because really anything you have to say is putting yourselves out there, and I appreciate that... thats really all I had in mind... being open and honest with our beliefs about life/death, our "purpose", procreation... maybe even with a drink in had.. jk.  Wink  My only regret is that this thread started turning south like so many do... I hate to see that happen on ANY thread... Im sorry TRULY sorry saying "having kids is selfish" got so many of you wound up.  I tried to put it out there just as a jumping point for conversation... Havent any of you ever had a professor that said crazy shizzznit just to get you to THINK?  That was it.  (yes, I do/did feel that way, but EVERYONE is entitled to their opinions for crying out loud)

 

Now, the reason I say "did" is partly because of Art's reference to Phoebe... hehe... youre absolutely right... EVERYTHING we do IS selfish.... Im gonna think about that one for a while.  Im sorry if you have zero patience with me because Im a pessimist.  If you knew me though, you'd know Im NOT one of those "Woe is me" types.  In fact, Im always happy and bubbly at work cuz I get caught up in the moment so easily.  Its when Im alone with my thoughts that I start thinking about existential stuff (lol... if I even used that properly!)  I love this stuff, and that is exactly what I wanted from this thread... not fighting!!!

 

That brings me to "guns-a-blazin" (I like that expression Smile)  and "looking for a dispute"  Beach, I just wish we all knew each other better and were sitting around a table... youd know that I was definitely not looking for a dispute... and all the questions in my OP were honest questions!  Although Ill be the first to admit, I was feelin a little defensive when I wrote that, so maybe it came across worse than I intended... Ill have to re-read.  Ultimately though, I think you did understand the spirit of my post because you talked about "getting angry for ever knowing the person"  and thats something Ive discussed with my friends in the past on drunk, philosophical nights as well... I think about what life is going to be like when grandpa leaves us, and I get angry (not at him, or for knowing him) but angry because... I guess I just dont deal with things well... maybe Im just lazy with my emotions.  Thats something Im starting to think about now.

 

MsD... totally gets my purpose (and NO its not just because she said having kids is selfish!!!!! let me be clear before anyone gets excited)  Rock on MsD.

 

NJ... I had NO IDEA your sister was pregnant... I dont read a lot of threads on here... mostly the ones about dresses... lol.  FH and I do have a personal friend though that did just that, they were struggling as it was, struggling BAD.. they moved to a town where her two sisters and cousin were all pregnant, and she just wanted to join the club.  Now THATS selfish.

 

Pharm... "dont ask me to apologize"???  Jeez.  Im curious WHY... what your thought process is.  And I was extremely curious to know what your total outlook on life and the... COSMOS is Smile because Im fairly certain theres a connection there.

 

Alright, this is getting long... Let me close by saying Im very happy that youve shared some of your personal beliefs wiht a complete stranger... lol... and for those of you I failed to mention by name, your input was just as valued and appreciated... I am still soaking it all in!


 

 

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