NWR: California & Gay Marriage

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SammiAnn Posts : 114 Registered: 3/4/08
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:02 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

You'll never get an answer to why it is wrong besides "the Bible says so" because there is no other answer or reasoning.  I am a Christian, but I struggle with the fact that homosexuals cannot be married.  Why not?  I know some wonderful people who happen to be gay and I cannot imagine them having to go throughout life not able to be in a committed relationship that is legally recognized.  I do know MANY Christians who do not believe that they should be married.

To me, the issue of homosexuality is between the person and God.  And another thing that irks me is when people say that homosexuals cannot be Christians...but that's a whole other tangent that you don't want to get me started on.

I say that gay marriage couldn't POSSIBLY ruin the sanctity of marriage because plenty of heterosexual couples have already done that!
June 7, 2008...here I come!

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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:25 PM Go to message in response to: SocalGal

SoCal- first of all, thanks for writing such a well thought out post. You sound like a very intelligent woman. As I was reading, I was starting to understand a little bit more about where you are coming from, however you contradicted yourself too.

In paragraph 3, you clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin and then in paragraph 9, you said you support the legality of gay marriage. huh??? so in other words you support sinners!

If that's the case, then I support sinners too!

By the way, I am Catholic. I was baptized, did my first communion, went to an all girl Catholic high school....the whole nine yards. Even that didn't convince me to be a practicing Catholic as an adult. So, I know about the Bible, I believe in God, I pray almost every day....

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ArtBride Posts : 4,838 Registered: 5/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:25 PM Go to message in response to: SammiAnn

This whole thing is ridiculous. OF COURSE people who believe homosexuality to be a sin will cite the Bible as the reason for it - because they believe the Bible to be the word of God. They need no other reason than that, as far as I'm concerned. I'm on the other side of the debate, but I can tell you that.

That's the thing with faith - you either have it or you don't. If you don't have it, you're obviously not going to believe people who say, 'I believe this on faith.' The whole DEFINITION of faith is 'believing in something without having proof.' So they don't HAVE to give PROOF as to why they believe something WITHOUT PROOF...and it makes no sense to ask them to. They believe in the Bible - that's all the evidence THEY need. Perhaps it isn't enough for you and me...but we're not people who believe things on faith. We are people who believe things on EVIDENCE, and for me, at least, it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to understand why people believe things on faith...yet they do.

 


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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:35 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

I don't necessarily think it's a contradiction to be OK with "sins" or for those of us not believing in sin, "wrongs" being legal.

2 Examples:

I think it's wrong to do drugs.  But I think that they should be legalized.  If a person wishes to do them, that is their choice to make.  Same with smoking.

I think it's wrong to cheat on your spouse.  But I don't think it should be illegal.  If a married couple wanted an open relationship, while I find it distasteful, I don't think it should be against the law.

 


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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,590 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:39 PM Go to message in response to: ArtBride

Well I disagree Art. Because to me, FAITH and THE BIBLE are two different things. Just because I dont follow or live my life by the code of The Bible, does not mean I dont have Faith. I am a spiritual person. I live by a code of ethics. My code of ethics. My system of values and beliefs. And I HAVE FAITH. I have a strong faith and idea and belif that there IS a God ... some sort of power,person,being,whatever...that is higher than myself, higher than all of us. Thats what I believe. So thats what bothers me. THe idea that "if you dont follow the bible or if youre not Christian, you must have no values at all or you must have no faith." No. Not at all. Again, what I said was that the bible FOR ME....mens nothing, because I dont live by it. And when I ask for someones opinion, thats what I want. An opinion. Not a quote from the New Testament.

When I made the statement about talking to SOME religious people is like talking to a wall because they do nothing but quote the Bible, I was speaking about IN GENERAL... not JUST when talking about Gay Marriage; but a LOT of topics. Such as abortion, birth control, wommens rights, or other controversial subjects that come up. Im just saying its difficult to have a conversation with someone who literally does nothing but give you QUOTES from the Bible. To me, its like if you asked me Kelley, how do you feel about custard pudding? and I said "Well in chapter two of Rachel Rays book I Hate Custard PUdding..she states that she hates custard pudding and that its a bad thing." Now, even if I follow the rules of the Rachel Ray book, its still not giving my OPINION on something to simply say what that book said. And not all religious people do that... only some of them. I have had many intelligent conversations with many Christians in the past who DONT do that..and we learn a lot from each other. Im just saying that by quoting the Bible to ME..someone who doesnt CARE or follow what that particular book has to say... we are not getting anywhere.


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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:42 PM Go to message in response to: Fitzer

Again, the two examples given (drugs and infidelity) are both CHOICES people make. And, they hurt other people. Drug addicts put their families through a great deal of pain, cheaters do the same. So, nice try.

Also, no I do not know for a fact that people are born gay. It hasn't been proven, right? But why in God's green earth would someone choose to be gay? Why do people live in shame by choice? Why would anyone open themselves to such discrimination by choice?

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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:59 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

You're going off topic now.

What I said has nothing to do with choice.  To those who see it as a sin, I understand how they can vote to legalize yet disagree.

Furthermore, what role does harm play in the discussion?  Your points actually serves to strengthen the idea that one can support something one finds to be a sin, since according to you, it doesn't harm anyone.  So in that case, one can support a sin that doesn't harm.

 


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SocalGal Posts : 456 Registered: 6/3/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:03 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

I can be against a sin but support the sinner...it's what I'm supposed to do.  I absolutely support sinners, without liking what they may be doing.  I will support someone who throws my beliefs in my face, and tells me I believe in fairy tales, because I believe in the freedom of speech.  But I certainly don't like it when people do that.  Just because I personally am against homosexuality does not mean I am contradicting myself in thinking that gay marriage should be legalized.  There is nothing in the Bible about gay marriage, and I see nothing wrong with it.  I support gay marriage because I believe the government has no reason to ban it. 

 


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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:06 PM Go to message in response to: Fitzer

I wanted to state for the record, I'm don't believe homosexuality to be choice.  I fully supoort their right to live as they wish including the right to marry, adopt, and otherwise live fulfilling lives as hetero couples are allowed to.

I do however enjoy a good philosophical debate, especially as it pertains to freedom of speech and expression and opinion.


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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:07 PM Go to message in response to: Fitzer

So in that case, one can support a sin that doesn't harm.

Don't all sins harm God? As someone else put it, doesn't God get sad when people sin?

Christians who believe that being gay is a sin, cannot (in my opinon) turn around and say "but I support gay marriage" because that would mean that they are supporting someone who is "harming" God. Because God said that being gay is wrong.

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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:08 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

But you didn't say anthing about harming God or making God sad.  You said that my two examples were of sins that harmed others.

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MiJoMy Posts : 245 Registered: 2/15/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:13 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

I am a Quaker and as such take offense to people using Christ as an excuse to explain away their fear of two consenting adults asking to be treated as equals by the government.

The bible does not condemn homosexuality. The famous Leviticus line is taken out of context. First of all abomination in actually translates in that context from uncommon. Sodom and Gomorrah is a story about inhospitality, and the negative references to sodomy refer to a common practice of raping your enemies after a battle.

Furthermore if you, or anyone who is using this as an excuse to deny people the right to marry, are claiming to be bible literalists, then I hope you are not eating shrimp. I hope you do not braid your hair or smile. I hope you are in constant prayer and I assume you own slaves. I also assume your husband has multiple wives, and you view yourself as property. All of these things are in Leviticus.

ALSO I hope you are pro-choice because ending an unwanted pregnancy is fully supported in the Old Testament.

Gay people deserve the right to marry because it is a right. Call your insurance company and tell them that they need to add your partner to your policy. See how that works. Separate but equal doesn’t work, and its offensive.


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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:16 PM Go to message in response to: Fitzer

Well isn't it true then that gays are harming God by sinning?

If yes, how can a Christian who believes being gay is a sin support someone who is harming their God?

I'm just tired of the wishy-washiness of those that keep saying "Gays are sinners" and in the same breath say "I support gay marriage."

 

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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:32 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

I don't know, I can't answer that.  I don't know if a sin harms God or not.  I always thought it was that sinning displeased God.  But like I've said before, I'm not a Bible-reader, I'm no expert on the theology side of things.

I don't necessarily understand finding something to be a sin while still claiming to support it.  However, I do understand (I think) what they're trying to say.  I think it comes down to, there are many religious people who can separate their, for lack of better word, Christian identity from their American identity.  The faithful, Christian side believing the Bible to be the guiding authority in their life, while the American side believes the Constitution, and other such American documents to the the guiding authority.

And I guess it comes down to, I try to understand the dilemmas this dichotomy (OMG, most favorite word ever!) creates.  Because both are very powerful belief systems.  Yet they often bump heads, especially when viewed in the situation of personal liberty versus morality.  And I think what it comes down to, for many of the reasonable yet very faithful, is that a person should be allowed to be or do things others might view as immoral (once again, I don't find homosexuality immoral in the least, but for those who do see it this way).  

And now that I've proven myself to be long-winded, I think I'm done. 


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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 5:33 PM Go to message in response to: SocalGal

I absolutely support sinners, without liking what they may be doing.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You support sinners! that's refreshing.

For the record: I DON"T support sinners. Gays are not sinners in my eyes. But if in your eyes they are sinners AND you support them just the same, then we've made progress.

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