NWR: California & Gay Marriage

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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 1:42 PM Go to message in response to: ArtBride

Murder doesn't have to affect me personally for me to have an opinion on whether it is right or wrong.

We cannot compare gay marriage to murder. Someone getting killed means that someone suffered, someone's life is forever changed because of it. The murderer caused a great deal of pain on to someone else. Even if it wasn't you personally that the murderer hurt. How does gays getting married hurt anyone of us?

Same thing with the men being superior to women. In this case, women are being treated less than human by men. It hurts ALL women. How can this possibly be compared to gays loving each other, and wanting to marry each other?

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SammiAnn Posts : 114 Registered: 3/4/08
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:14 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

I have been reading this thread with great interest and I think that many of you ladies bring up excellent points.

I would like to say one thing on the whole premarital sex thing being a sin...this is also another one of those "sins" in which the verses often used can mean many different things and depend solely on interpretation.  Therefore, to some it may not be a sin because the Bible does not explicitly say that it is...just like the verses used against homosexuality are up for interpretation.

Some history:
--The word homosexual was not coined until the late 19th century...meaning that it was not in the Bible until after that, when editors put it in there.
--The whole concept of "True Love Waits" (i.e. waiting until marriage to have sex) came about in the 90s by a Christian group trying to promote abstinence among teens and to reduce the teen pregnancy rate.

Well, that's all I have to say for now.


June 7, 2008...here I come!

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ArtBride Posts : 4,838 Registered: 5/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:22 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

We cannot compare gay marriage to murder. Someone getting killed means that someone suffered, someone's life is forever changed because of it. The murderer caused a great deal of pain on to someone else. Even if it wasn't you personally that the murderer hurt. How does gays getting married hurt anyone of us?

I certainly wasn't comparing gay marriage to murder. I'm a 100% supporter of gay marriage, but I also support anyone's right to disagree with me.

So I can't answer the 'how does gay people getting married hurt you?' question, because I'm 100% for it. Perhaps one of the anti-gay marriage people can answer it. All I'm saying is that I feel that they have the right to personally disagree with my opinion.


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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:29 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

Gin-

Call me crazy, but I think you are being a b*tch. :) I never posted anything about my DH doing drugs. He smoked weed at a Dave Matthews concert 2 years ago, but other than that he has never done anything else. My DH DOES not have anger issues. My dad does. You're wrong. My post was about my DH having strippers at his bach party. I don't even think about that anymore... it's pretty much overrrr now thanks.

I sin. I had sex at age 16. I was doing something wrong. I continued to have sex until I got married. Did I know it was wrong? Yes. Did it make me cry sometimes? Yes. Did I keep doing it because I was in love with my high school boyfriend and liked having orgasms? (hahaha) Yes, sure did. I am a faulty person. I have made mistakes in my life that God would definitely frown upon. But I repented and now believe I have made peace with God.

I still believe being gay is a sin. Do I think that if someone who is gay asks God for repentance will go to heaven. Yes. The man I mentioned earlier who came to speak at my school said that he prayed to God to work in his life and a little while later he lost all interest in men and is now married to a beautiful wife. Do I think that this can happen to all gay individuals. Yes I do. Am I wrong for thinking that? It's not up to you to decide.

Now, I will say this again and again if I have to. I realize that no matter what I say, people will continue to be gay. Do I have the right to stop them? No I don't. My faith has no right to "rule" over law. Does it still upset me that (personally) they are sinning? Yes it does. Did it upset my youth pastor when he found out I was having premarital sex? Yes it did.  BUT, he could not tell me what to do or keep me from doing it. I never hold ANYONES sins against them because 1. they are equal and 2. I have sinned too. That would be hypocritcal to hold them against someone else when I have sinned too.

P.S. Yes gin, as a matter of fact you DID hurt my feelings.


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formerly MrsEichel1207


Message was edited by: SDIwifey1207

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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:31 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

Artbride and Birdlover-

Thank you both again for your support. I know we don't all agree, but you two have been very respectful about it. :) I really appreciate that.


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formerly MrsEichel1207

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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:32 PM Go to message in response to: ArtBride

All I'm saying is that I feel that they have the right to personally disagree with my opinion.

I agree with you there. Sure, we all have the right to disagree with each other. It would be really nice though, for someone who is anti-gay marriage, to answer my question WITHOUT quoting the bible or simply saying "it is a sin." 5 pages into this discussion and we still haven't gotten a good answer from the anti-gay marriage people as to why they are opposed to a specific law.

 

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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:38 PM Go to message in response to: MuffinB

Muffin-

Good point. I'm sure that if people (myself included) didn't think that being homosexual was a sin there wouldn't be so many protests against it. If I didn't think it was a sin I would probably be okay with it too.


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formerly MrsEichel1207

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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:43 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

Okay. I FINALLY figured out how to word this... sorry for like 30508530485 million posts in the last 10 minutes..

I get upset when I see other people sinning the same way I do when I sin. I cry when I make a mistake and I cry when others make mistakes. Hell, I even cried over Bin Laden cuz I felt so bad that he had messed up his life! I'm too emotional for my own good. And I could DEFINITELY not be a prosecuting attorney!


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formerly MrsEichel1207

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ginmal Posts : 396 Registered: 1/11/08
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:43 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

SDL....I think you are being a whiney brat. I'd rather be a bitch.

Now, I never said Yor FH had anger issues or was on drugs...I said that MAY have been what the post was about but it was DEF. about issues with your FH.

I don't really see how you can let someone who has a difference of opinion than you "hurt your feelings"....

I understand what you are saying that you think being gay is a sin, but you think people have the right to sin if they so choose to do so.

As I said in an above post...I just don't see how one sin is better or worse for that matter than another and I really don't see how if you believe that being gay is a sin but you would vote for them to legalize gay marriage THAT STATEMENT in and of itself is a contradiction.

You choose to sin wether it be pre-marital sex, stealing, murder, rape...etc...those are CHOICES.

A gay man or woman is BORN just that GAY. They do not CHOOSE to be gay...hell I bet most of them WISH they weren't gay so life would be easier. They no more choose to be gay than you or I can choose to be tall or short.

The ONLY choice a homosexual has is to live in the closet or out of the closet. Both of which options I think have downfalls...

And if you believe that being gay is a sin, and you believe that God created all people then why wold God create individuals to BE sins?? That makes no sense.

And again WHY does it upset you "presonally" that they are "sinning" if their sin has no effect on you what so ever...they are not hurting anyone with their "sin" so what is the big deal??

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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,590 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:51 PM Go to message in response to: ginmal

SD- I agree with Gin and Caribbean that you really do tend to contradict yourself. A lot. And also; its really not very "Christian" of you to call Gin a Bitch. But I suppose as long as you "repent" for it, all will be forgiven, right?

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MuffinB Posts : 778 Registered: 7/13/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 2:54 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

I'm sure that if people (myself included) didn't think that being homosexual was a sin there wouldn't be so many protests against it. If I didn't think it was a sin I would probably be okay with it too.

So, all the scientific evidence that points to gays being BORN gay doesn't mean anything to you?

What if tomorrow they prove that gays are born gay? is it still a sin?

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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,590 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 3:32 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Muffin; youre making some excellent points and Im in complete agreement.I actually posted about the Bible issue a few posts back, dont know if you saw it. But in summary; I was saying that when I ask someone a question such as "Why do you have a problem with gay marriage?" or any other question, and their reply starts with, "Well the Bible says..." I immediately tune out. Because The Bible means nothing to ME. So you might as well be quoting Dr. Seuss; because Its just meaningless. Its also insulting that SOME Christians automatically assume that everyone on earth follows and worships the Bible. Guess what? There are a LOT of religions out there,and a lot of beliefs. The Bible is ONE of them. Please dont quote it to me as it is not MY belief system. And by quoting it, youre assuming that it is; that those words mean anything to me. And more importantly, when I ask for your OPINION on something...an issue...thats what I want. YOUR opinion. And quoting the Bible is not your opinion. Its just regurgetating what you read and choose to believe. But what do you THINK ...in your own brain,heart,etc? THATS what I want to know. And with some religious people, its like talking to a wall because you cant ever get their opinions without a quote or them saying Its a Sin,its a Sin... and again; this is why I dont follow any specific religion personally; I just cant get behind that kind of thinking.

"THE AISLE RUNNER" has officially launched ... www.myaislerunner.com

Time for Biggest Loser 6. TEAM KELL-LIZA will Cha-cha-cha our way to the TOP PRIZE!

 

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ginmal Posts : 396 Registered: 1/11/08
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 3:42 PM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

Well said Muffin and Kel....

I want a reason besides "its a sin" or "the bible says so" as to why people DISAGREE so much to something that does not effect them at all.

And SDL..if you cry over Bin Laden "ruining is life" you are seriously WAY too sensitive.


**Formerly Gin & Gin13...forgot my password!! LOL**

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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:00 PM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I want to defend the so-called "Christians" on this thread.  Not in the content of their views, but in their rights towards their opinions.  I say all this as a person who has never been to church and questions the existence of God.

First off, I think it's somewhat offensive to A). immediately disregard their beliefs because they come from the Bible and B). to assume that their beliefs aren't their honest opinion and are only blind regurgitations. 

Just because it is not your belief system does not make it worthless.  We can't pick and choose our oponents sources - we don't get to create an approved list of valid belief sources.  That would be like saying, "Let's debate psychology, but if you mention Fraud, I'm going to tune you out because I don't believe in Fraud."  As an historical text, the Bible is very well corroborated.  As such, even to the non-believing, like myself, I have to respect it is a source.

Furthermore, why must a person's opinion be incongruous with the Bible?  If a person is thoughtful, has studied it, has pondered it's messages, motifs, themes, etc, why must we automatically insist their opinion is only a regurgitation and blind following?  

And why is it that our own regurgitation of scientific reading and opinion be any more valid?  Have you yourself done scientific research on homosexuality (for example)?  Have you studied rat DNA and done behavioral analysis of homosexuality?  If not, aren't you in essence simply basing your opinion on hat others have said?  Aren't you regurgitating another's thoughts yourself?  Do you blindly believe what anyone with an MD or PhD spits at you?  I'm sure I don't need to get into the many times researchers have been wrong.

Furthermore, yes, SDI has contradicted herself.  However, as others have pointed out, so what?  Why can't a person change their mind?  I realize for many, myself included, this is a black and white issue.  If you were raised in an open-minded and honestly, more socially liberal environment, this is an easy issue.  However, not everyone grows up with that line of thinking.  So as they get older, they are exposed to more ways of seeing the world.  And it's a difficult thing to grapple with when a belief that was instilled in you from Day 1 suddenly doesn't seem so black and white.  I'm sure we have all felt that way at some point.  I'll admit, I have. 

Just some things to think about.


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SocalGal Posts : 456 Registered: 6/3/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 20, 2008 4:00 PM Go to message in response to: RomanticGirl

RomanticGirl - I used that specific proven historical fact in the Bible as an example, because it's the first one that popped into my head.  I believe in it's authority and validity because nothing in it has been disproven and because my personal relationship with God confirms it. 

I'll be the first to agree that a lot of what's going on in Christianity today is the work of Satan: as an organized religion, it is not without it's flaws.  The intolerance that you mentioned is a prime example.  I don't have to like or agree with homosexuality to be accepting and tolerant of it.  I would never walk up to a gay person and scream that they are going to hell.  Heck, I would never walk up to anyone and say that.  It is not my duty to judge.  I leave that ultimate judgement to God, who it is meant for.  Do I know for a fact that my interpretation is right?  No, I don't, and I never said that I did.  In fact, I stated that I didn't know that it was.

I believe it was Artbride who argued that the commandment to love they neighbor superceded the Old Testament writings against homosexuality.  Homosexuality is displeasing to God, as is any other sin.  That is what the Old Testament says about it, in a nutshell.  His commandment for us to love one another doesn't make it any less pleasing to Him.  It just means exactly what it says: that we are to love everyone.  As stated above, I do love and respect homosexual people.

There have been several posters who are asking those of us "against gay marriage" for a reason why that has nothing to do with our belief system.  First of all, I never said to be against homosexual marriage, since I know that I cannot force my beliefs on anyone else.  I said that I believed homosexuality to be a sin.  And why do I need an argument that isn't based off of my faith, when my faith defines who I am, just as several posters (usually the same ones) say that being gay defines who someone else is?

Those of you in favor of gay marriage: what are your reasons?  I'm guessing that the responses will be a mix of "because science is proving that homosexuals are born, not made" and "because all people should be equal in the eyes of the American government."

Yes, science is trying to find the basis of homosexuality, and the weight of it is that it is inborn.  As several have mentioned, completely ignoring science is like saying the earth is flat, or global warming doesn't exsist.  I have two responses to that.  A couple centuries ago, the weight of scientific opinion was that our universe rotated around the earth.  A couple decades ago, no one gave a thought to global warming.  Who's the say what science may or may not prove 50 years from now, or 3 hundred.  Science is great...thanks to it, we can communicate with anyone on the planet thanks to the telephone and the internet, and diseases can be cured.  But science is always changing.  Why is it intelligent for you to base your beliefs (not necessary religious beliefs, but personal convictions) on something so unconstant, but intelligent and uninformed for me to base my beliefs on a constant, never changing God?

To those that argue about equal rights:  As it stands in most states, gay people have the same right to marry as straight people do.  A gay man can marry a woman, the same as a straight man can.  I understand that this is an unsatisfying truth, but it is a truth nonetheless, and it can't be argued.  The difference is a matter of choice.  The homosexual community want marriage to be redefined to accomodate something it never has before; they want different rights than everyone else, not equal rights.  To illustrate my point:  let's say that there are two people, Tom and Joe who have a legal right to vote in the state of Oregan.  Tom takes an active interest in American politics.  Joe is much more interested in the goings-on of France.  Joe claims that Tom has a right he doesn't have: Tom can vote in matters that are important to him.  Personal choice and beliefs have no effect on the legality of the ruling that both have equal rights to vote. 

What about the idea that marriage should be about love?  According to the legal idea of marriage, love has absolutely nothing to do with it.  My husband and I were not asked to prove our passion in order to be legally married.  Arguably, the history of marriage has had nothing to do with love.  Looking at all of the marriages in history will find a large percentage of arranged marriage, and not just in non-western societies.  Using the idea of love to support a legal binding that doesn't care about love simply doesn't make sense.

In closing, we all have our convictions for our own reasons.  I do not feel the need to justify my beliefs beyond my faith, since I live my entire life based on a single moral code.  I feel I have presented reasoned, well-thought out arguements, and I am more than happy to discuss further.  So please, those of you on the "opposing" side (again, not entirely accurate, since I support the legality of gay marriage), if you feel need to attack someone, argue with me.  I think SDIWifey has put up with enough, and I am more than willing to take her place.

 

 


True love never has a happy ending; true love never ends.

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