NWR: California & Gay Marriage

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LochNessie Posts : 1,631 Registered: 4/2/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 16, 2008 7:51 PM Go to message in response to: Retired

We will not be the country we claim to be until we treat all people, black, white, gay, straight, handicapped and all others, equally. 

Amen, Nocturnius!  Those are my thoughts exactly.

It just makes me unbearably sad when I think about what it would feel like if our positions were reversed: What if heterosexual marriage was considered, by some, to be against _______ religion?  What if FH and I couldn't get married because someone we didn't even know thinks we'll burn in hell for it?  I can't even imagine what that would feel like.

This country was supposed to be based on the rule of law, not the rule of religion. This isn't Iran, and we don't decide things in this country based on a particular denomination of one world religion.

-Ness


 

Check out my work bridal blog: http://vclarke.encblogs.com.  I also need to come up with a name for it!  Who wants to help? 

Oh baby don't it feel like Heaven right now? Don't it feel like something from a dream? - Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers

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kroberts Posts : 443 Registered: 7/30/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 16, 2008 10:16 PM Go to message in response to: LochNessie

 Majority rules; minority rights. The majority gets to make the rules, but the rights of the minority shouldn't/can't be taken away.


April 4, 2009 is the big day!

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parvastella22 Posts : 199 Registered: 4/24/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 16, 2008 10:47 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

This nation is founded on the separation of church and state.

Let's try to keep this in mind when we think about "gay marriage".  I mean...people are offended by this mainly because of their cultural and especially religious feelings. Let's not mention that interracial marriages were banned for the same exact reasons.

Let's be a little bit more progressive here, shall we?




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Brookitacita Posts : 59 Registered: 12/4/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 3:55 AM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

My question to the pious posters out there is this: what do you hope to accomplish by preventing gay marriage? I understand that homosexual activities are against your religion -- don't partake in them then. But there are homosexuals in this world and they will still partake in their "homosexual activities" whether you like it or not. The only issue under debate is whether these couples who are living their lives the way they choose no matter what anybody thinks will be allowed the same rights as their heterosexual neighbors. Why shouldn't they be allowed the same rights as everyone else? There are a great deal of things I believe to be immoral that I would never partake in myself, but that does not mean these things should be illegal. Some religious people claim that allowing gay marriage is ruining some sort of sanctity associated with marriage. Well if that's the case, then why is it okay for a teenage girl to get knocked up and get married to some teenage boy who doesn't love her just because they think they have to? How is that sacred? I believe it is also against most religious teachings to have sexual intercourse before marriage. So should people that do this not be allowed to get married because it is against your teachings? Why should it be okay for people who don't love each other to get married for other reasons  -- insurance benefits, health benefits, greencards, etc. I don't believe such unions as those to be sacred. What about married couples with an "open relationship" -- i.e. swingers and the like. Is that sacred to you? In an ideal world marriage would be a sacred union, but it is not -- our society is flawed and there are also flawed marriages. I think we need to concentrate more on making our own marriages sacred the way they were intended, and less on worrying about whether gay people should be denied that opportunity. These people are exactly like us is all ways except one that doesn't concern or affect us whatsoever. Who are we to decide we are so much better than them?

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kroberts Posts : 443 Registered: 7/30/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 8:15 AM Go to message in response to: Brookitacita

Total agreement.


April 4, 2009 is the big day!

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RomanticGirl Posts : 777 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 10:25 AM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

There are some Christian sects that embrace homosexuality and do not see it as a sin. Same with some branches of Judaism.

See, what bothers me, is that I am very spiritual and very much connected to God. And for someone to decide that they are more religious than me, and that their religion has more validity, is incredibly small minded and laughable.

Live and let live. If you think Gay marriage is a sin, then don't do it.  But some of us are equally "pious" and spiritual, and we do not agree that homosexuality is a sin. That's why there needs to be freedom of choice. 

 


 

 

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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 11:38 AM Go to message in response to: RomanticGirl

I cannot accomplish anything by banning gay marriage at all. Not everyone believes the same thing. I was just basically saying how I felt about it.

In a perfect world, for me, gay marriage would not exist. But, with that said... there HAS to be a separation of church and state. People will be homosexual no matter what and nobody can really tell them they can't be unified as heterosexuals are.

So I guess i'm for equal rights, I just dont personally agree with some of those rights.


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formally MrsEichel1207

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SDIwifey1207 Posts : 346 Registered: 7/9/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 11:51 AM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

Also, I don't claim to be more religious than anyone. Thats something personal and is between an individual and God. To me, anyone who believes in God is religious.

In addition, I don't know why The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. But I do know that if it's considered wrong in God's eyes... it is a sin. Just like killing someone or lying. I do not believe any on sin is greater than another and we ALL struggle with personal sins in our lives. So I do think its a possibility that homosexuals still go to heaven, if they believe in God that is. I just don't see how anyone who believes in The Bible could say that being homosexual isn't a sin.


<3 I'm so in love with my hunni bunni <3

                 Dec 29 ,2007

          Formally MrsEichel1207

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myra Posts : 5,550 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 12:09 PM Go to message in response to: RomanticGirl

There are some Christian sects that embrace homosexuality and do not see it as a sin. Same with some branches of Judaism.

Are you kidding?! Where did you get this information? Please, pass it on to the rest of us. I don't know of any Christian or Jewish denominations that "embrace" homosexuality. There are some that do not condemn it and embrace all human beings. But, you make it sound like they are promoting homosexuality, which, as far as I know, none are.

By the way, good article on today's LA Times on gay marriage in Massechusetts, the first state to allow it. Turns out, the whole thing is almost a big yawn, with none of the horrific consequences that nay-sayers were predicting.

myra at www.classysassyweddings.com


Message was edited by: myra

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RomanticGirl Posts : 777 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 12:33 PM Go to message in response to: myra

I know jewish rabbis who have gay partners. I know christians who belong to churches who embrace homosexuality. Don't remember the "label" of these sects, but they do exist, thank God. It's a far jump to say "promoting homosexuality" is what embracing means. Embracing something about oneself does not mean you are promoting it. It is simply about not seeing it in a negative light. Toleration means putting up with something you don't like, embracing is more about seeing the good in it.

The bible may say something about homosexuality, but not everyone sees the bible as a direct connection to God unfiltered through the human writing it. There are Christians who embrace Jesus' teachings, but do see the bible as a product of its time.

 

 


 

 

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kroberts Posts : 443 Registered: 7/30/07
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 12:48 PM Go to message in response to: SDIwifey1207

My sister's girlfriend is Catholic. We've had really good conversations about being gay and Christian. In the end it boils down to her answering to God when the time comes. I also think that being gay is nothing one should have to answer for nor ask for forgiveness.

The Bible is man's interpretation of God's Word. Not to mention the translations that God's Word has been put through over the thousands of years. Hebrew, Latin, German, English - thousands of years and hundreds of languages with translations being commissioned by powerful men with agendas.

What's the old joke about the Monk that asked why all these pages have to be copied by hand? When the old wise monk goes to the originals to makes a point. He's found hours later pounding his head against the wall, "We missed the "r," we missed the "r." It's not celebate..." (celebate/celebrate) 


April 4, 2009 is the big day!

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RomanticGirl Posts : 777 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 12:52 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Baptist Church Embraces Lesbian Minister

By BRIAN LEWIS
Staff Writer

January 26,2003

BELOW: The Rev. April Baker greets churchgoers after service at Glendale Baptist Church.

web-0126-a-glendaleWhen the Rev. April Baker became a Southern Baptist minister more than a decade ago, she knew she would have trouble in the job market.

She'd graduated from one of her denomination's top schools, Southeastern Baptist Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. But she was a woman. About a year later, though, Baker confronted something about herself she'd largely ignored — her sexual orientation. That brought a crisis of faith.

''I grew up in a very conservative Christian environment,'' she said. ''Homosexuality wasn't even discussed, but you knew it was wrong.''

For years, she prayed to change, but that didn't happen. Gradually, she came to believe that God loved her just as she was. But that didn't make it any easier for Baker, 39, to find a job with a church.

Her search ended at Glendale Baptist Church, a congregation in Green Hills, where she started working in May as associate pastor. Glendale was founded as a Southern Baptist church in 1951 but has been viewed more recently as a renegade congregation of sorts for its ordinations of female pastors, its views on God and the Bible and its affirming attitude toward homosexuals. It stands at a crossroads now as its senior pastor prepares to retire in March.

Baker, who was hired specifically to minister to children and families at the 200-member congregation, won't replace Caldwell as senior pastor, but the church isn't completely sure what the future holds. It's in the midst of ''a visioning process,'' said Stewart Clifton, a member and a former Metro Council member. ''We have a lot to decide.''

Sometime soon, the church probably will be disfellowshipped from the Southern Baptist Convention, which has taken similar action against about a dozen other churches since 1988 that acted to ''approve, affirm or endorse'' homosexual behavior.

Generally, the churches either performed weddinglike services for gay people or hired gay clergy. Southern Baptist spokesman Bill Merrell said he was not aware of Glendale's action. When the convention meets in the summer, Glendale might be disfellowshipped, he said.

''If the convention knows that it does, in fact, affirm, approve or endorse homosexual behavior, then I would say the relationship is tenuous at best,'' Merrell said.

Glendale's drift from the Southern Baptist Convention can be traced to the conservative resurgence that started in 1979 and focused on biblical inerrancy. The church also is affiliated with the more moderate Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptists.

A few years back, the church considered dropping the word Baptist from its name because of the convention's conservative shift.

The congregation uses hymnals published by a different denomination, partly because they have more gender-neutral references to God than the Baptist songbooks.

So while the church sends a portion of its budget to the Southern Baptist Convention, Baker said, being sanctioned would not be a crushing blow to the congregation.

''It's not that we don't care,'' she said. ''It's just that we're facing reality.''

The congregation includes several former missionaries and seminary graduates, such as Vanderbilt Divinity School alumnus and Metro Councilman Chris Ferrell. He is one of the main sponsors of a bill that would prohibit discrimination against homosexuals in hiring or housing in Davidson County. The bill has received strong opposition from local religious groups who say it would infringe on their freedom of religion.

In American religious life, ordination of gays and lesbians is an extremely contentious issue and has been the cause of vigorous debates in denominations more liberal than the Southern Baptists, such as the United Methodists, Episcopalians and Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

Glendale wasn't trying to make a statement by hiring Baker but instead wanted to find the best person for its congregation, said Annette Sisson, who was on the church's search committee.

''It may say something about us as a church,'' she said. ''Some of the more traditional Baptist pastor candidates would not be a good fit.''

All of the finalists for the position were women and two told the church that they were lesbians. When the congregation learned that, about a dozen members left, said Sisson, an English professor at Belmont University.

Those who have stayed say they are happy with Baker's performance and think she'll be a stabilizing force as they prepare to replace the senior pastor.

''This church is extremely pleased that April is here,'' Clifton said. ''It makes it a more secure time for us.''

For Baker, she's happy that she finally has a chance to serve God in a church and insists that her sexual orientation is a small part of her identity.

''I am merely one of the ministers of the church,'' she said. ''Not the woman minister. Not the lesbian minister. Just one of the ministers who tries every day to follow as closely as I can to the teachings of Jesus.''

END

 

 

 Homosexuality in Episcopal Church

The Episcopal Church affirmed at the 1976 General Convention that homosexuals are "children of God" who deserve acceptance and pastoral care from the church. It also called for homosexual persons to have equal protection under secular law. This was reaffirmed in 1982. In 1994, the GC determined that church membership would not be determined on "marital status, sex, or sexual orientation". The GC also discourages the use of reparative therapy to "change" homosexuals into heterosexuals.47

Despite these affirmations of gay rights, the GC affirmed in 1991 that "physical sexual expression" is only appropriate within the monogamous, lifelong "union of husband and wife."48 Although some dioceses within ECUSA bless same-sex unions, the church as a whole does not.

The first openly gay priest, Robert Williams, was ordained by Bishop John Shelby Spong in 1989.49 The ordination provoked a furor. The next year Barry Stopfel was ordained a deacon by Bishop Spong's assistant, Walter Righter. Because Stopfel was not celibate, this resulted in a trial under canon law. The church court dismissed the charges on May 15, 1996, stating that "no clear doctrine"50 prohibits ordaining a gay or lesbian person in a committed relationship.51

The first openly homosexual bishop, Gene Robinson, was elected on June 7, 2003 at St. Paul's Church in Concord, New Hampshire. Thirty-nine clergy votes and 83 lay votes was the threshold necessary to elect a bishop in the Diocese of New Hampshire at that time. The clergy voted 58 votes for Robinson and the laity voted 96 for Robinson on the second ballot. Consent to the election of Robinson was given at the 2003 General Convention. The House of Bishops voted in the affirmative, with 62 in favor, 43 opposed, and 2 abstaining. The House of Deputies, which consists of laypersons and priests, also voted in the affirmative: the laity voted 63 in favor, 32 opposed, and 13 divided; the clergy voted 65 in favor, 31 opposed, and 12 divided. Robinson was consecrated on November 2, 2003 in the presence of Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold and 47 bishops.52 Since the ratification of Robinson as bishop, some clergy and lay members have left the Episcopal Church (see Anglican realignment). In October 2003, an emergency meeting of the Anglican primates (the heads of the Anglican Communion's 38 member churches) was convened. The meeting's final communique included the warning that if Robinson's consecration proceeded, it would "tear the fabric of the communion at its deepest level."53

 

So as you can see, there are groups and leaders in the Christian churches who do in fact embrace homosexuality. This was found after just a five minute google search, I don't have time to find more, but hope this helps.

Not that I think it should have anything to do with government decisions anyway. But I do think it is interesting to see that there is more than one way to be a follower of Jesus. And so much of it is up for interpretation.

 

 


 

 


Message was edited by: RomanticGirl

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Retired Posts : 808 Registered: 4/17/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 12:54 PM Go to message in response to: myra

Myra: you mean like how gay marriage was going to lead to people marrying their pets? Because clearly, marriage between two consenting adults of the same gender is the same as a person marrying an animal. :3

That last sentence was sarcasm.

The fact is, you're free to believe as you wish. But imagine for a moment if someone told you that you couldn't get married because you and your FH were born in different states. Or because you have different blood types. Does it sound ridiculous? When it comes down to it, it is no different than saying someone can't get married because they're gay.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be murderers. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be rapists. In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to worry about your child going to school and coming home to you in a body bag. In a perfect world, the local white supremacy group wouldn't picket a baseball game where I opened with the National Anthem simply because I'm Native American, or try to crash our high school graduation because our valedictorian was black.

I stand by the statement that there are far more important things to be concerned about than homosexuals being allowed to marry, no matter what religion you are.


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BooBishaBride Posts : 120 Registered: 1/31/08
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 1:24 PM Go to message in response to: myra

I don't think she meant denominations as a whole but specific churches or groups within a specific denomination. There recently has been a catholic archbishop who is trying to pull homosexual members "into the fold". And many Christian churches recognize gay unions and debate that the word homosexuality has been purposefully mis translated. I've attended churches that are more or less neutral. Gay members were welcomed equally, but the church didn't say anything about homosexuality good or bad. 

Whoa even prouder to be a Californian! 

SDl- There are many Christians who disagree that the bible says no on homosexuality. Allot of the passages include the word 'homosexuality' have arguable been mistranslated when it should have been bestiality or pediphila or something. Allot of hebrew scholars claim that the word homosexual didn't exist in the language around the time of the bible. And some claim that the story of David included homosexuality. 

You are completely entitled to you're own beliefs, and I'm thrilled that you recognize the separation between church and state :) For you're own interest you might want to read through the other gay marriage thread to see the debate over whether the Bible prohibits homosexuality or not.

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BirdLover Posts : 2,834 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: NWR: California & Gay Marriage
Posted: May 17, 2008 2:10 PM Go to message in response to: BooBishaBride

Myra:
I would say that the United Church of Canada "embraces" homosexuality, as they openly ordain gay ministers, marry gay couples, and do not teach that homosexuality is a sin.  Does that help?

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