NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing

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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 11:31 AM

is really starting to piss me off. I was watching the news this morning and learning more about it.  No I dont agree with 15-16 yrs old (and younger girls) being forced into marriage and sex. And no I don't agree with the abuse that might go on and the possible brainwash.

However I also dont think its right that they ripped away these children from the moms like that. And I even heard that they might be putting them in the foster system. I know there are lots of issues surrounding this story but I don't doubt the children are loved by their moms. And I just don't think its fair for the system to swoop in and try to change their way of life.

I dont understand it, as most people don't but these children and most of the moms were born into it and they dont know anything else. They dont feel held against their will, and aside from the pervs that are marrying these young girls, it doesnt seem to me like they're harming anyone else. I dont think their way of life affects me in any way. And if there is sexual and physical abuse, those people should be prosecuted.  But otherwise why can't people leave them alone?? I dont know, just my opinion, I guess.


Formerly Ama102707

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Fitzer Posts : 643 Registered: 8/7/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 11:57 AM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

I don't like the thought of taking children away from their mothers, but otherwise I have to disagree with you.

We left them alone until the police were called by a 16 year old girl reporting physical and sexual abuse, not just to her but as a widespread practice on the compound.  Plus, the call was anonymous so they didn't know who the particular girl was.

They're way of life would be fine if it didn't involve rape and beating.

Also, the argument that they know no better, it's just their way of life, they're not harming anyone else...that's scary similar to arguments used 150 years ago to defend slavery.


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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 12:03 PM Go to message in response to: Fitzer

Oh no I know its sick and I dont agree with the way of life. But I think until they prove that there was something going on (and I know there is, im not an idiot) then they shouldnt be taking the kids away from the moms. I just think the kids belong with their moms and unfortunately these people were born into this so they dont see anything wrong with it....its the leaders' fault for brainwashing the people and I just feel bad for the young kids caught in the middle,

And believe me when I saw those 3 polygamist women on TV i almost turned it off b/c they did sound really odd....


Formerly Ama102707

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auntofthebride Posts : 9,354 Registered: 4/2/06
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 12:23 PM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

Ladies,

You can live how you like.

You can practice the religion you like.

You can raise your children as you like.

But you CANNOT subject your children to physical and sexual abuse.

Why are 14-year old girls raped by adult men in the FLDS? Because their mothers permit it. Because their mothers were raped, as well, and see it as "normal". Because non-pedophile men and boys are excommunicated from the sect. The only men permitted to stay, and conduct these multiple marriage/rapes, are those who buy into pedophilia.

If the mothers would stand up to these pedophile perverts they call "husbands", all this would come to a halt.

I see no difference between what is happening in Texas, and what happens in an individual family when Dad is raping the daughter and Mom is in denial. In that case, the child should be removed from the home.

It's just a question of numbers, here, not principle.

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ArtBride Posts : 4,838 Registered: 5/9/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 12:43 PM Go to message in response to: auntofthebride

I agree with AOTB. There is no difference here, in my opinion, between this situation and anyone else to commits physical and sexual abuse crimes. Their religious beliefs and way of life are irrelevant - the fact is that they are living in a country where such acts are CRIMES, and they should be treated the same way as a 'normal' person who commits the same crime.

I honestly don't mind the children being taken away from their parents. I think that those investigating the matter should do everything in their power to move the investigation along as quickly as possible, though, so that the children can return to some 'normal' life - be it returning to their parents or being placed in foster care - as soon as possible.

Their way of life DOES affect us all because they are sending the message that crimes can be excused, so long as the person committing the crime believes in a religion or way of life that tolerates said crime. If they are found to have committed crimes and are then excused for their behavior, what's to stop me from saying, 'I believe in the Church of ArtBride and it is custom of the ArtBridians to insert your favorite crime here'? Where do we draw the line between religious fundamentalism and insanity?

I wish I knew more about the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Does anybody know a lot about them? I just don't know enough about them to judge whether the religion is just an excuse for behaving the way they want to. Like saying, 'I like chocolate, so I'm going to make up a religion where God commands everyone to eat nothing but chocolate.' Does anybody know the history of the religion/sect/cult/whatever it is?

I'm also interested to hear what some of the lawyers around here have to say on the topic.


DaisypathWedding Ticker

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auntofthebride Posts : 9,354 Registered: 4/2/06
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:15 PM Go to message in response to: ArtBride

Dear ArtBride,

I could write a book.

Oops, what I meant to say is that I have READ the book. I recommend "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer (ISBN 0330419129).

Mr Krakauer is, in my opinion, an excellent writer. He's thorough and thoughtful. Other titles you might recognize are "Into Thin Air", an account of the Mt Everest disaster, and "Into The Wild", the story of Chris McCandless who went into the Alaskan wilderness, never to return.

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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:40 PM Go to message in response to: ArtBride

Yes I totally see AOTB and Artbrides side.  I agree with you guys 100%.  I still just have a little soft spot for the innocent little kids...

Formerly Ama102707

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,962 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:43 PM Go to message in response to: auntofthebride

Here's the thing:

It's all about the best interests of the child.  This is the approach generally taken.  If there is physical abuse and rape going on in a household, the state gets to intervene.  At least that's what I remember.

Ama, as far as your concerns are about being ripped away from the mother, you've got to look at it this way.  They are not being ripped away from their mother.  Their mother can follow them.  If a child was in an abusive home and decided that she could no longer stand it and left, isn't upon the mother to also stand up to the abuse?  If she does not stand up to the abuse, than she is a willing participant in it, as I see it.  Also, the child leaving might just be the motivation she needs to leave too. Doubtful, but it's possible.

The main question as I see it, and it's an interesting one, is whether it is possible to be a member of this religious sect, and be a parent.  It doesn't look to me like it is.  Thus, as far as I'm concerned, they lose their right to be a parent.

So, compared to the life they were leaving, are the children better off?  The cynical, pragmatic in me doesn't really think so.  I think they are screwed and scarred and will have to live for the rest of their life knowing that their parents chose some crazy cult leader over them.  Because that's really what mommy did. 

But at least, at least, the cycle for the children's children will be broken.  And that's something.


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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:47 PM Go to message in response to: MsDenuninani

Yea I see it now.  And I do feel so sad for the kids who will have to live their lives remembering all the bad things they grew up with and I'm sure they will be scarred forever.  You're right the wives and mothers have no reason NOT to follow their children out but b.c they are brainwashed that may not happen. 

Maybe when the kids grow up they will be thankful that the police came in when they did. However I have heard of kids escaping and then wanting to go back b/c they didn't like their new way of life.  I guess I just feel sad for them...


Formerly Ama102707

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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,590 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:50 PM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

NJ; if you have a soft spot for the innocent kids, then you should see why they NEED to be taken out of this environment. Whats more harmful? A small child being taken away from his or her mother and put into a better environment where he or she will be treated likea CHILD and not something they are trying to train? OR keeping the child in that environment and watching them slowly morph into yet another vulnerable, submissive adult who thinks this sort of thing is "normal." You let the cycle continue, youre just as bad as the one raping and molesting. (not YOU,but whoever is letting it continue.)

A MOTHER is supposed to protect her child. That is her job. To protect her child and help her child grow into an adult. Allowing your child to be sexually abused and forced into a way of life where they have little to no chance of being a normal productive person is ABUSE, neglect, and is NOT protecting your child.

And true; this behavior may not go on in ALL polygymist households; but it goes on all the time in the communities they live in and are brought up in. And its considered normal. It breaks my heart that these innocent kids wont be KIDS for long ... their lives torn apart by such abuse so early in life. They have no chance starting out like that. Its disgusting.


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PharmToxGirl Posts : 5,446 Registered: 8/30/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 1:53 PM Go to message in response to: auntofthebride

I'm with AOTB and Artbride on this. 

Granted, if the women go through counseling and prove themselves fit, that is a different side of the story.  That would then be up to the courts.  As it would in the situation AOTB described.


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NJ4Life Posts : 3,358 Registered: 8/10/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 2:06 PM Go to message in response to: PharmToxGirl

yea...at first i saw it the way everyone else had described, the moms not being fit and whatever. Then I kinda felt bad for them.  But now I understand that the kids and moms need help and in this situation the moms are not fit to bring their children up in a healthy way....unless like PharmTox said and they get serious counseling...

Formerly Ama102707

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MrsJunebug Posts : 333 Registered: 1/11/07
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 2:11 PM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

When a person is in a situation that violates their personal rights, they always recognize this.  There is something fundamental in all of us that recognizes when we are not being treated as we should be.  This is true even if we have never known anything different. 

Think about all the girls and women that are raped in Africa.  This occurs to many women every day - almost a "normal" part of life.  Yet each woman recognizes that she would not have engaged in the act had she been given a choice.  Same applies to the creepy sect in Texas.

I believe 6 women did choose not to return to the compound and hopefully their children will be returned to them.  All the other women had the same choice but opted to return.

I think in reality that these girls and women do recognize that they are not treated fairly even if they don't have a firm grasp of how relationships work in the real world.  There is a lot of manipulation and fear tactics used in keeping these women quiet.

I firmly support the right to freedom of religion, but not when members are intentionally being physically and mentally abused.  The American foster system leaves a lot to be desired, but remember - these kids can return at any point in adulthood if they so choose.  I have a feeling very few will choose to do so.

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Charlotte09 Posts : 1,021 Registered: 2/22/08
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 3:45 PM Go to message in response to: MrsJunebug

Those mothers are not fit at all. They might act kind and sweet and innocent, but the truth is that they are horrible people who have let their children be raped, married away, undereducated, and many other things while still under aged. I know that they might not know better and have been brainwashed by the leaders in their group, but this still proves that they are unfit mothers. These children need level headed adults to take care of them, not people who choose leaders and religion over their own children. They are all flat out sick and deserve to have their children taken away. It is no lie though, it is going to be difficult for those children and it will take a lot of time to rehabilitate them to somewhat normal. 

If anyone is interested I am currently reading the book "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. The author was apart of the FLDS and was married off at 18 to a 50 something year old male against her will. She ends up having 8 of his children one right after the other. She ends up deciding to escape with all of her kids. The book is about her life in the FLDS and her escape. I am not far into it but it is very interesting and enlightening. I believe her story was also covered on Oprah a while back. 

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futuremrsperry Posts : 1,904 Registered: 4/23/06
Re: NWR-This Whole Polygamist Thing
Posted: Apr 16, 2008 5:09 PM Go to message in response to: NJ4Life

I saw interviews with these moms.  They avoided every question that had nothing to do with getting the kids back.  I'm sure the majority of these parents are good parents.  But if you know underage girls are being forced to marry men 30, 40 years older then them and you say nothing, you are just as guilty as the people directly involved.  Plus the sect siting "religious freedom" in all this is crazy!!  I do hope this is resolved very soon.

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