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Gay Married Rant

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kelleyiskelley Posts : 11,593 Registered: 7/2/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 21, 2008 3:10 PM Go to message in response to: Bride2008

The bible is a book, a very old book, written by very human people and it has morphed over time and religions continue to pick and choose what to follow ANd how to translate the portions that they WANT to follow.  For me, that book should play NO part in the legislation of our country.  It certainly, IMO, should have no more weight than any other religion's dominant philosophical book (ie: koran) and I really wish we'd stop legislatin over it, voting because of it and expecting that christianity should be the only valid religions.  Says who???? Your church???? (this is not christian bashing, you're free to BE a christian, just as I'm free not to be) But to me, that has no place in government.  Ever.


CYNDI... I couldnt have said it better myself. Really. Thats why I didnt lol. Absolutely perfectly stated and so very true.

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LizS Posts : 1,982 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 21, 2008 3:49 PM Go to message in response to: BirdLover

I agree with you too.  There are a lot more things to worry about than who someone decides to marry!  LOL!

I am Christian and it does not bother me.  It never has.  It's something you are born feeling...not a choice.  You can not help who you love and there is not always a reason why you chose someone over another.  I don't care what the bible may or may not say.  There are many different translations of the bible that have come about over time.  And who is to say which version is more correct than the next?  Or which religion is more correct than the rest?  The majority of the world is Catholic, yet Jesus was Jewish.  So, does that mean you have to be Jewish to go to Heaven too?  If so, it looks like I am out of luck there!

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auntofthebride Posts : 9,357 Registered: 4/2/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 21, 2008 5:55 PM Go to message in response to: kelleyiskelley

Ladies,

The Torah (essentially Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutoronomy) is a code of laws written for a specific society at a specific period of time. The people today who best follow the entire Torah, not just selected bits, are observant Orthodox Jews.

However, even observant Orthodox Jews have had to intrepret the Torah in light of today's society. What to do about, for example, Electricity? Television?

Assuming that you are not an observant Orthodox Jew, you would indeed pick and choose bits of the Torah that apply to you, and leave out other things that do not apply. There's a lot of good sense in there, such as an admonition not to kill other people.

I certainly practice in my every day life the prohibition against murder. I do not, however, avoid creative work on the Sabbath as an observant Orthodox Jew would do.

Let's create another comparison, as an example. Let's say we look at the legal system of a foreign country, such as the UK, France or China. I'd like to bet there would be a lot of overlap with our own US laws, and furthermore would bet that a prohibition against murder would a commonality.

However, there are other things that we do not have in common with the British, French or Chinese legal systems. The British have an inherited aristocracy; we do not. The French have a very different method for putting accused criminals on trial. The Chinese are, after all, Communists.

When it comes to evaluating legal systems, including that of the Torah, US federal and state law, as well as foreign government systems, I think it good to see what works and what doesn't. We can all learn from each other.

The whole subject of this message thread is gay marriage. It is now legal in Canada, Spain, and various other countries. I think it good for us Americans to watch what happens in places where gay marriage is legal and see what we can learn from them. I am especially interested in the Spain experience, as that is a country with a huge concentration of Roman Catholics. And, yet... look at how liberal their marriage laws are! Wow. Spain. Who woulda thunk it?

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thebigcheese Posts : 155 Registered: 4/2/07
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 21, 2008 7:56 PM Go to message in response to: PLysak

While the founding fathers did recognize a higher power as the source of basic human rights, there is nothing in the Constitution specifying that this higher power is the Christian concept of God.  The Bill of Rights refers only to a "Creator", but does not refer specifically to God, Jesus, or Christianity, nor does the rest of the Constitution.  In fact, many of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians.  So while it might be accurate to say that our laws recognize a higher power as the source of our inalienable rights, it is absolutely not accurate to say that they are based on the Bible.  Yes, Christianity has been an important influence on the formation of American law and democracy, but it is not the only one, nor is it the most significant.  The ancient Greek and Roman ideas of democracy, the Magna Carta, English common law, and the philosophy of the Enlightenment are other significant foundations of American government.

People have known murder is wrong since long before the emergence of the Bible.

Now that I have that out of the way, I too would like to thank the OP for starting this discussion, and I'm very happy to see so much support for gay marriage.  (I agree that civil unions are an insulting substitute.)  There are a lot of straight people whom I would like to legally bar from marrying, but I understand that living in a supposedly free society, that's not my choice to make.  All of the Christians opposing gay marriage have the right to do so, and they also have the right to join congregations that mesh with their beliefs.  They don't, however, have the right to block government recognition of those relationships.

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ryanne Posts : 1,042 Registered: 4/27/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 24, 2008 12:08 PM Go to message in response to: thebigcheese

thebigcheese--You're absolutely right about our government and the Constitution. I grew up being told that Christianity was the basis of it all and blah blah blah, but after taking all my college classes and  doing my own reading...I realize just how wrong that is! The sad part is, I know a lot of homeschooling families who use textbooks that teach exactly that!!


 

Our Wedding Website: www.mywedding.com/chrisandryanne

 

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ChrissLady Posts : 1,352 Registered: 4/5/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 7:22 AM Go to message in response to: ryanne

I stumbled upon this article last week and haven't had a chance to post it until now.  What do you ladies think?

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1082190/posts


 

WWW.MYWEDDING.COM/CHRISTOPHERANDMONICA

 

 

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BirdLover Posts : 2,835 Registered: 3/30/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 12:45 PM Go to message in response to: ChrissLady

The article lost me as soon as it mentioned marriage = procreation.

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EmSer Posts : 68 Registered: 3/21/08
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 12:54 PM Go to message in response to: BirdLover

BirdLover-
God did not create gay people. Homosexuality is a choice or can be brought upon by family curses but God did not create it. Why would God create reproduction thorugh only a man and a woman if He created homosexuality? It just doesn't make sense. Homosexuality is the ultimate rebellion against God and His creation and it will be judged, by God. The Bible says that all fornicators, all homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven, not my opinion, but the truth. A standard set by God. Thank God for His grace that sent Jesus Christ to die in our place that even though we've made wrong decisions and sinned, we can be forgiven and still go to heaven. But it's not about repenting once and going on doing whatever we want. It's about letting God control our actions and base our decisions on His Word and His standard. And this is only possible through a relationship with Jesus.


 

Can't Wait To Be Mrs.S!!!


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Bride2008 Posts : 3,059 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 12:56 PM Go to message in response to: EmSer

Wow - and I am guessing God or Jesus personally called and told you all of this? The next time he calls, give him my number. There are a few things I would like to ask him.

It is hateful, judgemental and ignorant remarks like those that make people turn away from religion.

"I came here tonight because when you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible." - Billy Crystal, When Harry met Sally 


Message was edited by: Bride2008

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EmSer Posts : 68 Registered: 3/21/08
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:02 PM Go to message in response to: Bride2008

It's all in the Bible. All you have to do is read it and ask God to give you understanding. God did tell me, through His Word, it's there for all of us, unfortunately, many don't take the time to.

 

Can't Wait To Be Mrs.S!!!


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ChrissLady Posts : 1,352 Registered: 4/5/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:03 PM Go to message in response to: Bride2008

Bride2008, thanks for making me laugh! First time all day, I feel terrible.

 

WWW.MYWEDDING.COM/CHRISTOPHERANDMONICA

 

 

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MsDenuninani Posts : 3,963 Registered: 3/16/07
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:03 PM Go to message in response to: ChrissLady

In response to the article that ChrissLady posted:

His argument boils down, essentially, to procreation.  He argues that there is a valid interest in linking marriage and procreation, and there is no valid interest in extending marriage to those who can't procreate.

This argument sounds good at first glance, but it misses the boat (as many economists do when they try to apply economic rationales to something as mystical and abstract as love.)

For if marriage and procreation are linked, then we should be weeding out those who have no intention of procreating from being able to marry.  He mentiones that clearly running tests on people for infertility would be costly, but what about for those who are already known to be infertile?  If you know you have a compromised uterus, then you shouldn't be able to marry. Low sperm count?  No marriage for you, either.   This would also mean that any woman who is past menopause (something that wouldn't need testing) shouldn't be able to marry.  So if you're a 55 year old woman who finally found the love of her life?  Sorry old woman!  No marriage vows for you! 

It also means that if, as an engaged couple, if you don't want children, then you too should not be able to have the benefits of marriage.  Actually, why not go one step further, if marriage and procreation must be strongly linked. . .how about no one be able to marry unless she's knocked up?  This way, the things that are costing us so much money like tax breaks and extended health care benefits will only be used on those for whom they are actually truly necessary.  Seems crazy, but that's certainly the most efficient way of keeping marriage and procreation inextricably linked.

However, if you think that that is hogwash, because marriage is not now, nor has it ever been, exclusively about one's desire to have children, then you realize that this guys reasoning is entirely too narrow.  Because you know, as we all do, that marriage is about something more than practical concerns about children.  This writer is trying to make marriage about something more than "sexual love" (whatever that means) but I don't think he's found his answer in linking it exclusively to procreation.

But even if marriage is exclusively about raising children, then doesn't gay marriage strengthen that? After all, the state has an interest in raising children in stable homes.  Marriage encourages stability.  As the author notes, gays and lesbians aren't prevented from having children; they are just prevented from having children who have married parents.  Isn't that unfair to the children, who are denied two parents with an open, state-recognized commitment to eachother?  Thus, children as well are ill-served by the ban against gay marriage.

_______________________________________________________
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them”    - Albert Einstein

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Bride2008 Posts : 3,059 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:06 PM Go to message in response to: EmSer

Please site the exact book of the bible and verse where it says homosexuality is a choice and against God. I have read the bible more than once and I couldn't find that anywhere.

MsD - I couldn't agree more with everything you just said.

"I came here tonight because when you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible." - Billy Crystal, When Harry met Sally 


Message was edited by: Bride2008

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RedStormGirl Posts : 184 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:11 PM Go to message in response to: EmSer

EmSer, you are wrong. I HATE when people say its "in the bible." This is what Christian Fundamentalists do - taking the Old Testament and making it say what they want it to.

All I want to say is that that I belong to the Catholic Church, and I KNOW that my church is NOT against gay people. We believe that ALL people, every single one of them, is a child of God. Stop giving Christians a bad name, and stop using "the bible" to make it say what you want. And all other posters, please do NOT take what she says as "what Christians believe"!

I'm not saying you need to support gay marriage. But if you were truly Christian, a person of the NEW Testament, then you would know what it means to treat people as Christ did. ESPECIALLY those who were looked down upon by much of society.

And before you go and tell me that I'm wrong, or that I don't take the time...not only am I a devout Catholic, but I also have two degrees in Systematic Theology. So take your bigotry elsewhere.


 

"Where you are is where I belong...I do know where you go is where I want to be." - DMB

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Bride2008 Posts : 3,059 Registered: 3/28/06
Re: Gay Married Rant
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 1:13 PM Go to message in response to: RedStormGirl

::STANDING OVATION FOR REDSTORMGIRL::

 

"I came here tonight because when you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible." - Billy Crystal, When Harry met Sally 

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